Hi , I have a nice Krag carbine that is all original but has a high serial number, when I check the serial number it comes up as being made in 1903. Serial number is 4759xx. Barrel length is correct as is the stock. It all looks like it is supposed too. Any ideas here?
Thanks
Mike

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More information, it has the saddle ring bar inletted into the stock but somne one has cut of the ring and ground the bar flat.
The reciever is marked model of 1898. I thought this was a model 1899.
Mike

Two things jump out in the photo -
- Front sight base is not original
- Handguard is the rifle model, not carbine with hump.

It appears you have a cut-down rifle. More and better pictures might help identify the stock.

This is the only picture I have so far. A rifle stock would not have a carbine bar set into the stock, so maybe it is a cut down rifle in a carbine stock. Could be.
Mike

The stock appears - given location of rear sight relative to barrel band - to be the longer style of carbine stock (32" as opposed to 30").

ONLY the short ones had the swivel bar/ring. If that item, or the base thereof, is found on a long carbine stock, Springfield Armory is not the party who put it there.

Definitely need more data, or additional pics, on this one.

Thanks for the info, so far everyone is saying it is a cut down rifle as the serial number puts it in 1903 production, but it is marked as a model 1898. They have said that it should be marled model 1899. Is there any sure fire method to check this. I know the collector I got it from has had it for years and he thought it was a real one.
Mike

I'll get it next week and can take pictures then. The bore is not so great but may clean up OK.

Disregarding the serial and model year, the bogus front sight base is a dead giveaway that the barrel has been shortened. Original Krag front bases are dovetailed and brazed directly to the barrel. The base on yours, probably the 1905 model for the Model 1903 rifle, appears to feature a band around the barrel. This was a common expedient for sighting a cut-down rifle without the careful fitting and finishing required to install an original-style base.

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Original Krag sight base attachment.

The "Model 1898" rifle was made from 1898 until a VERY few in 1904, so there is NO inconsistancy with that marking vs. that serial number. Most original carbines made during that time period used receivers stamped "Model 1899" - and they occur in several well-defined blocks.

The true "Model 1898" carbines are a fairly rare, and hard to ID, item - but - the few (just 5003) specimens made occur in the 112xxx to 135xxx range only, which is close to the beginning of the 1898 model style. Yours is thus way out of line, with zero possiblity of being an original Springfield build. Sorry to give you the bad news.

As to the long ownership, yesterday's "collectors" were nowhere near as sophisticated and well-infomed (due to the several books now available) as those buying guns today. Time was, if something looked nice, and had a short barrel, it was a "carbine". That situation no longer applies.

Hi Dick, OK I can see what your saying about long term ownership not meaning anything and the old collectors, they did not have access to the info we do now.
At least the stock on this one should be worth something to a Krag collector, it is in really nice shape.
Wish it were a real carbine though.
Mike

Is the bolt handle curved to the rear or is it picture distortion?

Here is some more information that I have had a chance to look up, this is out off Brophy's book.
M1898 carbine 5,000 made using model 1898 actions.
M1898 converted carbine 3,000 made using the model 1898 action.

M1899 carbine first model made using model 1896 actions, 9,000 made.

M1899 Carbine second model made using model 1898 actions, 16,000 made.
M1899 Carbine third model made using Model 1899 actions, 2000 made.
If I'm reading the prodution correctly they used what ever they had and built them in lots, with 3 or 4 distinct seperate models of carbines produced using these model 1898 actions. They were even used up until 1905 for some rifles.
Mike

It seems that I will have to dig out Brophy and rereread it as this is the only statement that I can recall as likely being from the book.......
M1898 carbine 5,000 made using model 1898 actions.
Could you give page locations of this info?

I do not have Brophy's book, this was taken off the web, I searched for Krag serial numbers and it came up with a whole listing taken right out of his book. Wish I did have a copy as it would make the research allot easier. I have no idea what all the differences are between the different 1898 series carbines, seems odd that there are so many series.  Knowing how or how not our government's procurement system works  leads me to believe that there was a greater need for the carbines than originally thought. And they kept adjusting production to take care of the added requests. Mounted troops in our other possessions needed carbines too, areas such as Guam, not just the Philippines. The P. I . carbines I think were for the P.I. army irregulars who were being trained and not for the regular army folks. And all of this makes sounds correct to me as the troops knew the Krag was on the way out and the 1903 Springfield was coming in as a replacement but no carbines wee to be made. So, I would think that every depot supply officer was ordering more just knowing that no more would be made. These were still in service in the Philippines until just after WW2. Some of the guerrillas fighter used the krag carbines when they could get nothing else. I have a picture of one of my uncles holding a krag carbine during the war, he was with the Fertigs raiders group after they broke him out of a prison camp.
Mike

I almost forgot, that the Philippine army units, scout's in specific were still using the Krag up to WW2. The army re armed them with model 1903 Springfield's by 1915, but the scouts kept the krag carbines for use. After being stationed there I can see why they would want the short carbine over the long Springfield. Jungles and long rifles do not mix well.
Mike

mwhite49 wrote on Oct 12^th, 2011 at 11:08pm:

M1898 carbine 5,000 made using model 1898 actions. M1898 converted carbine 3,000 made using the model 1898 action. M1899 carbine first model made using model 1896 actions, 9,000 made. M1899 Carbine second model made using model 1898 actions, 16,000 made. M1899 Carbine third model made using Model 1899 actions, 2000 made. If I'm reading the prodution correctly they used what ever they had and built them in lots, with 3 or 4 distinct seperate models of carbines produced using these model 1898 actions. They were even used up until 1905 for some rifles.

I'm really sorry to advise you that the above is just plain not true at all - you have somehow misunderstood what was said, and so gotten way off on the wrong foot.

(1) 5003 carbines were made using 1898 actions, in the 112xxx -135xxx range, only. They were originally issued with short (30") stocks having a sling ring, and identical to the stock of the preceding M1896 carbine, except for bolt handle notch. Soon after issue, they were all restocked with long (32") M1899-type carbine stocks.

(2) ALL subsequent new carbines used "Model 1899" receivers. There is no such thing as different "types" of 1899 Carbine. None were built "using 1896 receivers"! They did have difffering versions of rear sight/handguard, depending on date made.

(3) All short Krags with 1898 receivers above - let's be generous - 140xxx, are cut-down rifles, no matter whether they are in a carbine stock, or a bubba stock.

(4) Some of the earlier M1896 carbines were later restocked using the 32" long wood as well. The 1896 style of short stock was last produced in 1897, and supplies were exhausted. These stocks have the M1896 bolt notch, and may be found with a variety of sights/handguards. They are NOT M1899 carbines. They do not have the sling ring - in fact, no 32" carbine stock had a sling ring.

Hope that helps.

Hi Dick, I hope I'm correct here. But why would Brophy put it in his book that the 5,000 carbines built in 1898 and were built on 1898 actions, and then Brophy states all of the info for the carbines using the model 1898 actions which shows that 29,000 were made using model 1898 actions per Brophy. He broke it down as  follows, Model 1898 carbine 5,000 with the model 1898 action, then the model 1898 converted carbine for 3,000. Then the M1899 second model built using 16,000 model 1898 action. Add that up and that is a total of 29,000 carbines built or converted for use. Brophy did a great job showing which action was used for which build. He says the M1899 carbine first model  was built using 9,000 model 1896 actions. And that the M1899 second model was built with 16,000 model 1898 actions. And that the M1899 third model was built using 2,000 model 1901 actions. So just in the model 1899 carbine series they used 3 different action, the model 1898 for 16,000, then 9,000 using a 1896 action and then 2,000 for the model 1901 action. That totals up to 27,000 of these M1899 carbines.
If everyone is reading the same info from Brophy and sticking to that 5,000 model 1898 carbines made using 5,000 model 1898 actions then you can't dismiss the rest of these, they are Brophy's figures and accounting. This is the info I pulled from Springfield armory and Brophys book.
Mike

There were a great number (approximately 380,000 give or take) of "1898-style" (no shroud at bolt handle seat) actions made.

5000 of them were carbines, in the 112-135xxx range, marked "Model 1898".

I'm not close to my Brophy just now, so the following will be off - but that is not the problem we are having.

Of the remaining 375,000 actions, about 37,000 (or whatever Brophy gives for the sum of Model 1899 production) were also used on carbines, but they were ALL marked "US Model 1899".

The other 338,000 receivers were used on Model 1898 rifles, and were marked "US Model 1898".

ALL Model 1899 carbines are the same except for rear sight variations. None were built on M1896 actions!

There is no such thing as a "Model 1901 action". There IS a Model 1901 rear sight.

Brophy, knew what he meant, and, it wasn't what you seem to be getting out of it - you are just not yet reading it right, and I'm not sure why. BTW, I'm not trying to pick a fight, or belittle you - in any way. I'm just frustrated in not being able to find the right words to steer you to the correct interpretation.

I actually dug out my Brophy and found the production totals on page 16. I guessed fairly close - but again, that's not the issue. Please advise page numbers for your data. Thanks.

Hi Dick, I know for whatever reason I'm having a difficult time grasping exactly what the heck Brophy had in mind when he came up with these figures. I can see plain as day as we all can and we all agree that there were 5,000 model 1898 carbines made. But at the same time if the other referances to the model 1898 actions being used in some of the model 1899 production run are not really true, or do not really say that then just what the heck is he refering too? I would like a hint or two here. And no I'm not mad or upset, I'm not a petty person. I would just like a better understanding of just how this information is to be read and used/applied. Becuase as iut stands now I'm lost , except for the 5,000 model 1898 carbines, first run.
And I know you have been a Krag collector for years, so I would apprciate your help here. Are my numbers that I had above way out of line for the amount of model 1898 and model 1899 carbines being produced?

After going over the prior posts, both here and on Jouster/Culver's site, I'm not sure I'm completely clear.
(1) Do you have a copy of Brophy (or any other Krag book) to which we can mutually refer - yes or no?
(2) Can you give me the web locations from which you are obtaining your data - yes, or no?
Thank you.

Hi Dick, no I do not have Brophys books. these were taken off the web and they made reference to the book. Here is the web address for were I got the info.
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The last one is from the national park service and it is the same info.
Mike

Aha!!

The "Bowers" list is nearly total baloney, as presented!!!  A reader has to know a lot about Krags to unravel it. It should be withdrawn, or extensively revised - period. I will attempt to contact the webmaster, at some point in the future. No one can be an expert on everything - and I believe he meant well enough, but he should never have phrased things the way he did.

There are no different types/models/styles/versions of the M1899 Carbine - other than the use of different rear sights. For example, where "1901" occurs in the second long listing (the one in all caps) it refers to the model of rear sight. Of course, he doesn't bother to point that out, leading to questions such as yours.

The other URL was just a Google search, which will have some bad info and some good info - I didn't check anything there.

While it is probably the least correct of the Krag books, Poyer is well worth the $20 (or sometimes much less, used, at Amazon, etc.)

Here's a table scanned from the Brophy book. Do you see why you're having problems trying to use the [mis]information you found on web?

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Buy or borrow a copy of the book and see what else you're missing!

Excellent, PS!  I don't have a scanner, but that clearly shows how Bowers skewed the data.

Now I see what you r saying. But the funny part is that the NPS is showing the same info as Bower.
i'm going to sell this one here soon.
Mike

Nothing funny about it - it's actually rather annoying to serious collectors when even the NPS/SA-NHS has their head up out of sight. Hey, the NPS is just like the DMV, a bunch of low GS-level 9-5 clerks, parroting what they are handed, nothing more.

But, I don't blame you for doubting us - we - the people who actually know, look like nut-cases, bucking the "system". And, I have to tell you,  from your last post, I still detect an ever so faint whiff of disbelief.

Hi Dick, no real disbelief, but how the heck do you find the serial number range for a real carbine from any year of production?
Thanks
Mike

Study, study, study - you can't do this and have a life, too.  Seriously, it takes time, but it isn't rocket science. There is a lot of GOOD published material - you were just very unlucky. I've never seen that Bowers site before. He may a whiz on some other items, but he does not know squat about Krags. The general serial number ranges are known from prior reasearch, and, sufficient study will pretty well tell you whether a gun is right or wrong. They did not make rifles and carbines at random. So, when you see an "1898 Carbine" in the 400000 range, you immediately KNOW it's bogus.

I guess you could say the whole carbine issue, and why it is important to be able to distinguish one from a rifle, is that they sell for more money, sometimes much more, and are thus more sought after. If demand were equal, no one would care.

On earlier (1896) Krags, you need to know what to look for, and have some idea of the numbering. 1898 Carbines are a problem - we know 5000 were made, from the army records. We know, from existing records that that they occur in a certain general range - but that span is WAY more than 5000 numbers. Now, it gets tricky, because, once separated from their distinctive stock, and having had later-model sights installed they are visually identical to an 1899 Carbine, except for their 1898 date. Since we do not know all the numbers, fakers have taken common 1898-dated receivers within the known span, put genuine carbine barrels on them, and then collected a premium for having a rare model. Genuine 1898 carbines in range, with an original short M1898 carbine stock are considered quite scarce and desirable.

Plain old "Model 1899" carbines are easy to spot, because ALL guns with that marking were originally made as carbines, so, there is nothing to be faked.

Hi Dick, so if I get this correct you are saying that any Krag receiver that is stamped model 1899 were originally carbines? And this may be so as no rifles were produced with that marking.
Thanks
Mike

For the purposes of this discussion, that is correct. Since the basic lack of understanding was so low, I avoided - and will continue to do so - the extreme oddball cases - as an explanation would only be confusing.

I've changed my mind - Bower's site is nothing I want anything to do with. Spent about ten minutes browsing his offerings. When I saw the fake (screamingly obvious to almost anyone) TD carbine, I said "that's enough".  He should stick to 20th century arms, and current milsurps - which are clearly his area of interest and expertise.

Dick, Bowers said it all in his web site, First and foremost he is a Buisness man. Did you notice that there was not one single brown gun, in the guns he shows I can see that every last one of them is sporting a clean blue job, sometimes over parts that should have been case hardened, and tha the stocks have all been varnished when most were an oil finish.
Can you say Snake Oil Salesman;
This character is not the onloy one out there doing the same thing. There are plenty of dealers who clean up and over polish every gun.
Mike
Mike