I am reloading my 30/40 with 180 grain sp bullet and have three powder choices.  4350, 4320 and IMR 4831.  Using my Powley's computer it recommends 4320 with 44.3 grains.  That happens to beyond maximum in my Hornady manual.  What experience do members have with these powders and what recommendations would you have?

Ed,
I haven't used any of the powders you listed however, my best advice is to follow the suggested loads in your manual. I might note that you sometimes find maximum loads different in different manuals but not by much.  I always begin low and work up until I find what I think is the best load for whatever firearm I'm loading for but I never exceed the maximum suggested in any of my manuals. As a matter of fact, I try to stay a bit below any suggested maximum.
Hope I've been somewhat helpful,
Old Chief (aka: Ed Lyman)

I've used 46 grains of IMR4350 in my 24" barrelled Krag using a 180 grain round nose bullet. It chronographed at around 2200fps. Most books list this as a maximum load and yield over 2400fps. I used some Remington loaded ammunition in my Krag which yielded over 2400fps. But I will stay with my load as is. Don't need to push things too much.

Ed, others have advised not to push the old Krag too hard & they are right.  Your load of 44.3 grains of 4320 seems more than a bit too much for me and I would not use that load in a Krag.  I messed about with 4350 and 4831 and 220 grain bullets and wound up cracking a bolt lug.

Most of the older writers, from Ned Roberts to Phil Sharpe to Ken Waters made recommendations on handloading the Krag.  All made reference to maximum loads in some manuals being entirely too hot for Krags. 

The Powley computer gives optimum performance for the cartridge, not for the rifle.  There have been stronger rifles than the Krag chambered for the Krag cartridge.  In the old days, the Remington No. 3 Hepburn and the No. 5 Rolling Block, the Winchester Single Shot and the Winchester 1895 were made for the Krag cartridge.  More recently, the Ruger No. 1 and the Uberti "Winchester" High Wall and maybe others have been chambered for the Krag cartridge. All are stronger than the Krag rifle. 

Get or borrow several different manuals.  Older manuals may have more data on loads for the Krag rifle than newer manuals. Read them carefully, especially where they tell you what sort of test rifle was used.  Then note what starting loads are most often recommended.  Also, you might consider 4895 or 4064 or 3031 powders. 

What are you going to shoot?  Targets?  Just plinking at a few bottles or cans?  Deer hunting?  Going to take a crack at a moose?  Pick a load suited to your intended use.  4831 (and maybe 4350) sometimes work best with magnum primers for optimum ignition, but unless you are after moose, how necessary is that?  Do you really need 2200 or 2400 fps to poke a hole in a paper target?

I agree with Waterman. If you are target shooting under maximum loads the gun may be more accurate. I for one plan on using my Krag for deer hunting. The "driftless" area of southwestern Wisconsin, where I grew up, there are brushy hollows that would suit my Krag well. With open sights and the light handling of a Krag (mine was sporterized long ago, of course) this will be an excellent choice of a game-getter. And I know that others in that area use Krag's as well. In my little hometown of Livinston there is a small gun shop that carries Krag ammo made by Wisconsin Ammo. They were out when I first inquired a few years ago as I was having difficulty finding loaded ammo anywhere for my newly aquired Krag, which is why I got the loading dies for the 30-40. I did find some Winchester ammo between Cobb and Highland, but have not shot and chronographed it with my Krag yet. It is also listed as a 2400fps plus loading with a 180 grain bullet. I'll likely hold onto those boxes and continue to reload with IMR4350 with slightly less speed.
I have too many deer rifles from flintlock to percussion to leveraction that I have gotten deer with. Now I'm ready to step-up to the 20th century and use a bolt action for deer.

waterman wrote on Nov 11^th, 2011 at 4:58am:

Get or borrow several different manuals.  Older manuals may have more data on loads for the Krag rifle than newer manuals. Read them carefully, especially where they tell you what sort of test rifle was used.  Then note what starting loads are most often recommended.  Also, you might consider 4895 or 4064 or 3031 powders.

Ed, I routinely use the Hornady Reloading Manual for my load data.  I load IMR 4064 exclusively for 30-40 in my two Krags (as well as 30-06 for my Garand).  I've loaded 180 grain sp bullets for decades with great results using 38 grains of the 4064, shooting in both my 1898 rifle and my 1898 cutdown sporter.  The Hornady manual (as well as the load chart included with my Lee dies) lists several different powders, and velocity ranges for each powder.  In addition, the Hornady manual lists the max load for each powder.  Normally I stay right around the mid range (usually two below max) and do very well with it.  I no longer hunt so I don't worry about much beyond accuracy.  That said, I now load 165 grain Hornady boattail soft points with 38.6 grains of 4064 and I achieve 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards and beyond in my 1898 rifle with iron sights.  Not too bad for my bad eyes! 

I agree with what everybody else has said... stay below max loads regardless of what powder you use to be on the safe side.   8-)

Another nice paper-punching load for the Krag is 34.6 grains of IMR-3031 and a 165 to 170 grain bullet.  That gives about 2000 to 2200 fps, depending on barrel length, and runs about 30,000 psi.

Ihave always used the assumption that the powder that fills the case the most the better.  That is why I would probably go with
4350 or 4831.  I was curious about 4320 as I have never tried it.  3031 I think would not fill the case enough.  But then again I maybe mistaken.  Thank you to everyone for your input.  These would be loads for whitetail.

I have been loading and firing 150gr nosler BT over 40gr of 3031 for several years now. In my carbine barrel it shoots very well (+/- 2" @100yds) and the burn is uniform on the cases. The CUP is comparable to 4320 around 39,000 and the recoil is mild. I neck size and have some with 3 reloads on them and I haven't burnt one out yet, but I do trim length everytime. The 1899 carbine seems to like it fine and it probably shoots better than I do. 4350, 4831 and 4320 will give you lower pressure and fuller cases and might be the better powder if firing 180gr class bullets. BTW the 150gr BT's civilize deer with a vengeance.   

Ed wrote on Nov 11^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Ihave always used the assumption that the powder that fills the case the most the better.

This may or may not be true, but shake a factory Remington or Winchester round (both are 180 grain soft points) and you'll hear loose powder which means that the cases are not filled completely.  In my humble opinion, I think it's better to work up a load that gives the best accuracy and (in the case of hunting) the most stopping power while keeping the pressures reletively low.  You might want to think about a 150-180 grain bullet with a higher rate of shock and expansion while keeping the volecity around 2000 to 2200.  Either way, I wish you the best of luck in your hunt!  Let us know what you wind up using...  Any data is good data for those who follow us to use!

It's going too far?

Ed, I scrolled over this string of posts several times and do not see that you ever disclosed what your barrel length is? It is vitally important to track load data by barrel length.

it measures 30.5 inches from muzzle to tip of bullet.  Could not chamber seat bullet too well.  Very deep throat.

Full-length barrel then. I shot IMR4350 all summer in my 30" Krags using the Hornady "max" of 42.6gr with 180gr bullets with good results. Groups were not as good on hot days (80 degrees or so) but worked well in the 55-70 degree range. Groups also seemed looser in the 40 degree range. Took 3 rounds warmed then in my hand and they shot nearly 6-inches higher. I find that managing ammo & rifle temperature is as important as tweeking the loads. I started several years ago with IMR 4895 in the 37gr range however the load density was poor (shook around in the shell) and the IMR4350 load densities were better.

I have a 30-40 Krag reloading manual with info from Speer, Sierra, Hornady, Winchester, Hodgdon, Lyman etc. The load recommendations vary a lot and some of it is that which you see repeatedly but some you can tell is authentic tested data, the Sierra and the Speer for example. I use 45 grains of W760 currently but 46 grains of 4350 is a standard and Ken Waters approved load. There is a great article by him called "Loading the Old Ones" written for Gun Digest in 197X/?; I actually have the volume and can send photo/scan copies to anyone interested. The slowest powders like 4350 will get significantly higher velocities in a 30" barrel without increased pressure. Those of us hunting with carbines and cut-downs just aren't going to get there without more pressure. The Remington factory load is about as fast as you're going to get. I have always wanted to take one apart, weigh and try to identify the powder but I suspect it is IMR4350. It fills the case completely and doesn't shake although a Winchester Super X will (I suspect W760). I agree with the aforesaid, that a fuller case equals better accuracy.

I have wondered too about the factory loadings. If that load book is the same as mine, it will show that 46gr of IMR 4350 will get a 180gr bullet to 2460fps in a 30” barrel (Nosler, Pg 10). I have read that Winchester and Remington factory loads clock-in for 30” in the 2440 to 2480 range so that Nosler load looks to be trying to match the factory loads. One thing for sure: They beat up the brass pretty bad and I have never duplicated such with my own loadings. You sure won’t see me shoving 46 grains of 4350 into my brass!

Personally, I put a good bit of faith in IMR's pressure-tested data for IMR powders. This from an ancient DuPont-era booklet -

.30-40 KRAG
WIN. CASE; WIN. 8 1/2-120 PR
REM. 180 GR. SPCL
.308" DIA.; 25.5" BBL.; 3.00" C.O.L.

Powder Grains Vel. C.U.P.
SR 4759 24.0 1940 39100
IMR 4227 23.0 1900 37800
IMR 4198 29.5 2150 39800
IMR 3031 38.0 2375 39300
IMR 4064 41.0 2435 39000
IMR 4895 35.5 2270 38800
IMR 4320 35.5 2210 38100
IMR 4350 46.0C 2445 38700
IMR 4831 49.0C 2425 35900

C=Compressed load

Oddly enough, the same data is currently on the Hodgdon website but with a Speer bullet and longer OAL. They have, however, removed the data for 4227 and 4198 - neither of which are particularly well-suited for this application anyhow.

Cartridge:       30-40 Krag
Load Type:       Rifle

     Maximum Loads
     
Bullet Weight (Gr.)      Mfg.      Powder      Bullet Diam.      C.O.L.                       Grs.      Vel. (ft/s)      Pressure      
180 GR. SPR GS SP       IMR       IMR 4831       .308"       3.090"                      49.0C       2425       35.900 CUP              
180 GR. SPR GS SP       IMR       IMR 4350       .308"       3.090"                      46.0C       2445       38,700 CUP              
180 GR. SPR GS SP       IMR       IMR 4320       .308"       3.090"                      35.5       2210       38,100 CUP              
180 GR. SPR GS SP       IMR       IMR 4064       .308"       3.090"                      41.0       2435       39,000 CUP              
180 GR. SPR GS SP       IMR       IMR 4895       .308"       3.090"                      35.5       2270       38,800 CUP              
180 GR. SPR GS SP       IMR       IMR 3031       .308"       3.090"                      38.0       2375       39,300 CUP              
180 GR. SPR GS SP       IMR       SR 4759       .308"       3.090"                      24.0       1940       39,100 CUP

If one trusts IMR data, 46 grains of 4350 shouldn't normally be an overload for these bullets in .30-40.

I should clarify that I shoot paper only. The 46 grain wallop is just not needed for it. On a colder day I have shot factory ammo in my 30” Krags with good results – but better so with the lighter “accuracy” loads. The same 46gr/IMR4350/180gr bullet recipe will give you about 2200fps in a 22” Krag which IS the accuracy load (Loadbook, Sierra, Pg. 15). I have 22", 24" and 30” Krags and would use 46gr but just not in the 30” for shooting paper. Parashooter, that data you listed says it is for a 25.5” barrel yet the velocities seem to be in keeping with a 30” barrel (per my previous post). Hot day maybe?  I am starting to wish they listed a test temperature. If not ‘hot day’ then we could expect the fps and the CUP to pick a bit if they also tested a 30” rifle - no?

I would expect the fps to increase with a 30" barrel, but why should pressure increase?  We are burning the same amount of the same powder in the same case in chambers which are more or less (+/-) the same.  Peak pressure ought to occur before the bullet has gone very far down the bore.  Pressures will increase as temperature increases.   Unless you keep the cartridges in the cooler.

If someone could confirm that CUP is a constant, that would be great since limiting CUP is a primary concern in a Krag. Going back to the Loadbook to compare the test criteria, the only differences I see noted between the IMR testing and the Nosler testing is the primers and the overall cartridge length.  IMR used Winchester LR primers whereas Nosler used CCI 200 primers. IMR used an OAL of 3.000” whereas Nosler appears to have used 3.089”. IMR data shows a “C” after the powder load also (means compressed?). If the Winchester primers are hotter and the IMR load density was higher or even compressed, maybe that is why the IMR data for a 25.5” barrel is similar to Nosler data for a 30”?

And here I was thinking I was setting the world on fire with my rudimentary loading datas, LOL

I got a look at a Lyman reloading handbook today, and they listed similar data for 180 grain bullets as my Hornady book.  However, the Lyman book did also rate the IMR 4350 at 46 grains as maximum load and not recommended.  The recommended load was 42 grains.  Interestingly enough, the book did not list data for 165 grain bullets!  only 150, 168, 174, 180, 210 and 220.  I found that odd as I believe 165 to be more common than 168 for the Krag...  but I guess I am still learning here too.

If you read that a certain load develops 39,600 CUP, you should not think of that as anything but a general indicator of results that might be expected.  Any time you change anything in a given load, you will potentially change the pressure that load develops.  If you change primers, pressures will change.  They will increase if a hotter primer is used and decrease if milder brand is used.  And there is variability in primers from a single source.  I would expect a tough bullet like a Nosler to offer more resistance to the rifling, and to develop higher pressure than the same weight Sierra Matchking.  Use your micrometers.  Not all .30 caliber bullets are .308 diameter.  And slug the barrel of your Krag.  They run from about .306 to over .311.  If you shoot a .308 bullet in a .307 barrel, pressures will go up.  If you shoot a .308 bullet in a .311 barrel, pressures will go down.

Powder changes from one lot to another.  Not much, but there are changes.  Brass changes from one maker to the next and may change with the same maker from lot to lot.  Compare the volume of W-W cases with R-P cases.  Weigh both types.  There are many reasons to stay away from high end loads for your Krag.  There are not too many good reasons to use them.

After shooting alongside muzzleloaders, I confess that I now gauge the ventholes in my brass - amazing variance. I use the chuck-end of a drill bit and roll the brass on its side. Wheather that brass is new or used, you'll find that the bit will stand proud in some brass (new or used) and virtually flop out of others. Couldn't convince me that that wouldn't affect shot-to-shot performance. I group my brass by this test.