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Message started by cjwils on Nov 18th, 2011 at 1:33am

Title: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by cjwils on Nov 18th, 2011 at 1:33am
Not sure if the administrator will allow this discussion, but here goes:
I started following this forum about a year ago, after I inherited a model 1898 which is still in the original configuration.  I have fired it a few times, and I got dies and some empty cases for reloading, which I have done.  But now that I am able to reload all the 30-40 Krag ammo I want, I am feeling an urge to try them in some other rifle.  One that intrigues me, even though I know little about it, is the Win model 1895 lever action.  I have seen them in cal. 30-40 on some of the gun auction sites online.
Anyone have any comments, recommendations, warnings, etc?

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by waterman on Nov 18th, 2011 at 2:09am
Nothing wrong with either the original Winchester 95 nor the latest Japanese iteration.  Just don't expect the same slick handling you have experienced with your Krag.  Winchester also made their 1885 Single Shot in 30-40. Originals are very pricey.  Remington made the No. 3 (Hepburn) in 30-40.  Very rare and mid-to-high 4 figures in front of the decimal.  Remington also advertised their No. 5 Rolling Block, but I have never seen one.  Remington also made their Lee bolt action in 30-40.  Those are also relatively rare.  I have a Uberti "Winchester" high wall in 30-40.  It is a modern reproduction of the original Winchester 1885 rifle, made of modern steel with a bushed firing pin.  If you ever shot an original high wall, you will soon realize that the Uberti is not the real thing.  But it is close enough, safe and affordable.  Lots cheaper and easier to find than any of the originals.  I would recommend the Uberti, but that buttstock will need replacement.  Recoil hurts!   There was also a Ruger #3, but most of those have disappeared from the used gun racks.  You might find the Ruger or the Japanese 95 in the $400 to $600 range.  All the rest will cost more.

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by psteinmayer on Nov 18th, 2011 at 9:42am
I visited the USMC Museum this week...  Winchester also made a 1895 version with a straight-pull bolt (rather than lever action) for the Marine Corps.  I think it's a beautiful weapon, but I doubt any are around to be discovered, and if so, they are most likely very pricy too!  I think that this was also chambered in 30-40. Magazine design is similar to the common 1895 lever action.
USMC_1895_Win.JPG ( 210 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by Ned Butts on Nov 18th, 2011 at 10:48am
Lee Navy rifles were 6MM cal

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by butlersrangers on Nov 18th, 2011 at 3:11pm
Ned is correct.  The 1895 Winchester-Lee (straightpull) was in 6mm/.236USN.  The magazine required a 5 round metal clip that dropped out the bottom of the magazine when empty.  The metal clip is rare.  The cartridge is rimless and was ahead of its time (given the propellants that were available when it was in use).  The Winchester-Lee has a lot of fragile parts and kind of 'cranks' into battery rather than being a true straight-pull.  James Paris Lee of Remington-Lee and Lee-Enfield fame was the designer.  In addition to the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps contracts, Winchester made a civilian sporting model.  When I was a young collector (1960's), I use to see a couple of military Winchester-Lees  that were sporterized by Bannerman (at Michigan gunshows).  These had letters of documentation as having been salvaged off the U.S.S. Maine.  When the Krag was adopted by the U.S. Army, it had rivals.  Other branches of the service were allowed to and did select their own arms.  Chuck McArthur

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by waterman on Nov 18th, 2011 at 3:32pm
Other than being made by Winchester, the Lee Navy had nothing in common with the John Browning-designed 1895 Winchester.  Total production was 20,000 . It fired a rimless cartridge with a steel-jacketed round nosed bullet.  Some of the first bullets weighed 135 grains, later changed to 112 grains. Barrels had a 1: 6 1/2 " twist. The small bore (.243), steel bullet jackets, corrosive primers and very-hot burning double-base powders made for short barrel life. Steel bullet jackets were changed to cupro-nickle, but that did not help.  MV was about 2500 to 2600.  Lots of CN fouling.  The cartridge case was smaller in diameter than the contemporary Mauser rimless cases. Case length was 61 mm, with a 30-06 case being 63 mm.  Only similar case is the 220 Swift.  Turning the rims off Swift cases makes usable Lee Navy cases.  If you are after accuracy, they can be swaged from 30-06 cases.  It is a major job.

The magazine was nothing like the 1895 Winchester.  Cartridges were inserted with the clip, something like the early Mannlicher rifles. The original clips can still be found.

I tried to buy a shootable Lee Navy in 2007.  Went to the big Reno show with $2500 in my pocket.  I found the only one at the show, but the seller wanted $4500.  $4000 seemed to be the asking price at auction. Maybe lower now.  Then I heard of a guy who restored one getting killed when the striker blew out.  Price + risk took me out of the Lee Navy game.  In 2008, one of the rifles from the Winchester test room was offered by one of the big auction places.  It went for $4200.

The Navy & Marines abandoned the Straight-Pull Lee about 1904.  Main problem was the 800-yard effective range of the cartridge. Contemporary military cartridges had effective ranges of 1500 to 2000 yards. 100 years later our troops have the same problem.

Krags were issued to replace the Lees.

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by waterman on Nov 18th, 2011 at 3:51pm
That was not the end of the Straight-Pull Lee.  In 1917 our troops needed a good automatic rifle that could keep up with the Infantry.  John Browning took the Straight-Pull Lee action and turned it upside down.  Then he designed a gas piston to work the bolt and a detachable box magazine to hold the ammunition.  The result was the Browning Automatic Rifle, Model of 1918.

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by butlersrangers on Nov 18th, 2011 at 3:52pm
Some Gatling Guns and Colt (Potato Digger) Machine Guns were built in .30-40 (.30 U.S. Army), as well as, 6mm USN.  Tripod and carriage mounted Colt Machine Guns in 6mm were used by our Marines in Cuba and the Phillipines in 1898 and in Somoa and China around 1900.

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by butlersrangers on Nov 18th, 2011 at 5:01pm
1899 U.S. Sailors marching through Dewey Victory Arch in NYC while shouldering 1895 Winchester-Lee Rifles (note distinctive web gear with pouches for 6mm/5 round clips).
1899-US_Sailors-NYC.jpg ( 107 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by butlersrangers on Nov 18th, 2011 at 5:53pm
The Manual for "The United States Navy Rifle, Calibre 6 Millimetres, Model 1895.", (1896 printing) is reproduced.  It has a nice fold-out of the Navy rifle.
Winchester-Lee_1895_Navy_fold-out.jpg ( 152 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by butlersrangers on Nov 18th, 2011 at 6:01pm
The Manual cover.
Winchester-Lee_1895_Navy_cover.jpg ( 41 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by waterman on Nov 18th, 2011 at 6:33pm
We marched almost that well when I was in the Navy 1960-65.  Apparently there are some re-inactors who get into the spirit.  It is possible ($$) to purchase reproductions of all the pouches, belts, etc.  Also parts and new production stocks for the Lee Navy. 

But there were problems with the striker.  The Navy or Marines obtained modified bolts somewhere along the line.  I have seen rifles described as having a modified bolt.  Reading about the guy who had a striker penetrate his eye and then his brain took all the fun out of the Lee Navy game.

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by waterman on Nov 18th, 2011 at 6:36pm
Note "Ensign N. C. Twining" on the cover of the manual.  Any connection to General Nathan C. Twining, USAAF, of WW2?

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by psteinmayer on Nov 19th, 2011 at 2:00am
Well, as is usually the case... there is a plethora of people on this site with a wealth of incredible knowledge!

I only meant that I thought the magazine looked similar in shape to the 1895 Winchester.  I didn't have much time to get a good look, just a quick snap of my camera.  And they didn't provide much info either, especially about ammo (something they didn't mention for any of the rifles except the mini-ball for the Springfield percussion of the Civil War).  I just assumed it was 30-40.  I had no idea about the dangers involved with this weapon.

Interestingly enough, they had tons of Garands and 1903's on display, but only one Krag (an 1896, with an 1899 rear sight) and one Trapdoor (an 1886), and no carbine examples of either!


Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by butlersrangers on Nov 19th, 2011 at 2:46am
psteinmayer:  I hope you don't feel attacked or offended.  We are all hopefully learning from each other.  You brought up some interesting topics, the 1895 Winchester-Lee and the Marine Museum.  Where is the Marine Museum?  Camp Pendleton?  I'm having fun - Chuck

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by psteinmayer on Nov 19th, 2011 at 5:43pm
Oh no Chuck, on the contrary, I truly enjoy discussing things on this forum, and I value the opinions, and especially the information that is discussed here!  I didn't feel attacked or offended at all.  When I first joined this forum, I knew only of my Krag, and the loading data that I use for my ammo (which works very well for me).  In fact, I didn't think my sporter was a cutdown until I posted pics on here.  I now know different.  I think I have made some incredibly good friends here, and I hope that continues for both me, and any other new Krag enthusiasts who follow. 

As for the US Marine Corps Museum, it is in Quantico Virginia, just outside the front gate.  I think that everyone should visit!  The displays are amazing and there are tons of them!  The sections are split up by era: i.e. Formation of the USMC, Civil War, Vietnam, etc.  There are examples by the scores of uniforms, swords, and especially weapons... mostly Garands and 1903s, but there are a few of the Winchester-Lees, and even a couple Allen Conversion trapdoors.  As I said before, sadly only one Krag!  There's, aircraft, vehicles, lots of information, and even pieces of the Pentigon and the WTC.  There is a mess hall, and a replica of the Tun Tavern (where the USMC was born) where you can enjoy a beer and a meal!  The USMC Museum is at exit 150 on I-95, about 45 minutes south of Washington in Quantico, Virginia.

Paul

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by waterman on Nov 19th, 2011 at 6:18pm
Paul, when you visited the USMC Museum, did you see any of the Springfield Armory-made Remington Model 1870 rolling block rifles or carbines in 50-70?  They were marked US Navy (or maybe just USN) with an eagle on the right side.  They were in use by the USMC throughout the 1870s.

On another forum, a guy working in Korea found some fired cartridge cases at a construction site.  Turned out, the USMC was in Korea about 1871 and did some shooting.  Stuff most of us never knew.

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by waterman on Nov 19th, 2011 at 8:46pm
The whole effort of finding and restoring a Winchester-Lee Navy rifle to its original state, then getting dies, making cases (requires really heavy duty press), making sure the rifle had the safety modifications, & developing loads is now approaching $5000.  All I wanted to do is to find out how accurate they were given our present highly developed 6 mm bullets.  Some things simply cost more than they are worth.  That's almost half the price of pretty good second hand pickup.  Or 3 or 4 of the nicest Krags you can ever imagine.


Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by psteinmayer on Nov 20th, 2011 at 12:19am
I don't think I saw the rolling block Waterman (sorry, I don't know your first name), but I was unfortunately quite rushed when I was there.  I was at the base on business and stopped by at the end of the day for a couple hours.  I'll take a look at my pictures and see if I have one that shows it.  I didn't see the entire place, but just hit the areas I was most interested, which was up through WWII.  I'm certain that if the USMC used them, then they were there somewhere!

On another note, I am ex US Navy.  I've been to the US Navy Museum in Washington, and I wish it was even half as big and involved as the USMC Museum.  The USMC Museum only opened a few years ago, but it is pretty impressive!  In 2015, the USS Ranger Museum is scheduled to open in Portland Oregon (providing they get the necessary funding donated).  I served on the USS Ranger CV-61 from 1987 to 1991.  I sure hope that museum is impressive!

Paul

Title: Re: Other 30-40 rifles
Post by waterman on Nov 20th, 2011 at 2:47am
Paul & others, when I joined this Forum, I used the name "Waterman".  I did not say much about myself, other than an interest in Krags.  I am a retired hydrologist, live on the coast in the far northern part of California.  The IT guy at the place where I worked identified me as "waterman" on our office network.  The handle works.

I am ex-Navy, 1960-1965.  I bought my first Krag in a Chinese pawn shop on King Street in Honolulu in 1962.  Back when a person could do such a thing.

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