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Message started by gunboat57 on Mar 9th, 2013 at 5:04pm

Title: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 9th, 2013 at 5:04pm
I have a sporterized 1898 Krag.  The barrel is now 24" long and the front sight is dovetailed in.  The front sight appears to be the regular military base and blade.  The front sight is directly at the 12 o'clock position (within a few thousandths) as measured using a square and calipers and using the underside of the magazine as a reference.

However, the rear sight (model 1901) is mounted almost .020" to the left of center.  It's really noticeable when the ladder is raised and it leans off to the left.

Is this normal?  I'd expect the rear sight base to be mounted right at the 12 o'clock position like the front sight.  Can someone with a full military condition rifle raise their sight leaf and see if it leans to the left relative to the front sight?

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by butlersrangers on Mar 9th, 2013 at 9:23pm
gunboat57:  Krag front and rear sights should be dead nuts 12 O'clock.  Check the breech end of your barrel and see if the notch for the tip of the extractor is a bit left of 12 O'clock position.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 9th, 2013 at 9:52pm
The right side of the notch for the extractor in the receiver lines up exactly with the right side of the notch in the barrel.  But the left side of the notch in the receiver is slightly to the right of the left side of the notch in the barrel.  I can feel the "step" when I use a bent paper clip.

In other words, the barrel could be VERY slightly torqued in too far.

Should I look for a witness mark somewhere that will verify the barrel isn't quite clocked right?

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 10th, 2013 at 1:57am
After doing more measureing it looks like my dovetailed front sight is leaning too far to the right so the front and rear sights look skewed from each other and the windage is off.

I can't redo the dovetail so I'm going to replace the front sight with a band type so I can get everything lined up.

Should I use the front sight from a 1903 or from a 1903A3 Springfield?  It seems like a lot of early sporters used those front sights.  I think either one will be a perfect fit on my .643" diameter barrel but I don't know if one would be better than the other.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by butlersrangers on Mar 10th, 2013 at 3:31am
gunboat57:  Krag barrels and receivers have an index mark.  It is viewable (when the barreled action is out of the stock) on the right side at about 3 O'clock.  You should see a fine line on the face of the receiver ring and this should match a fine line on the barrel.  Also, the flat upper surface of the Krag extractor serves as a good reference point to tell if sights are in 12 O'clock position.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 10th, 2013 at 12:05pm
OK, I found the index marks right where you said.  They were hard to see because the barrel/receiver had been re-blued.  The marks are perfectly lined up.  So I guess the rear sight being a little to one side was within tolerance.

But I think whoever cut the dovetail for the front sight didn't get it aligned with the rear sight so I'll get either a 1903 or a 1903A3 front sight.

Thanks for the helpful replies!

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by Dick Hosmer on Mar 10th, 2013 at 3:38pm
SA's workmanship was usually "perfect", and I would have trusted the indices and the rear sight way ahead of some unknown's work on a new front sight prep. By any chance have you checked the rear sight to be sure it has not been buggered, bent, is sitting up on a burr, or some crud on one side, not properly seated, etc?

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 10th, 2013 at 5:21pm
Dick, the rear sight is in near perfect condition, threaded holes are un-messed-with.  I'll check for burrs, crud, etc. but I removed the rear sight, put the screws back in the holes, and found the screws were also off center by .015".  So, it's the threaded holes themselves, not the rear sight. 

But you know, I'm not sure what to use for a reference surface to see if the rear sight is off.  I was using the rear underside of the magazine box as a horizontal reference.  Maybe I should use the extractor notch in the receiver to find the centerline?

I'll try to post a couple pictures soon.

In any case, when I get the new front sight I'll align it with the rear sight.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by madsenshooter on Mar 10th, 2013 at 7:23pm
Does your barrel have a P proofmark?  Reason I ask is Numrich has sold some  Krag barrels in the past that had alignment problems.  If yours has the proofmark, then that's not the case.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 10th, 2013 at 7:49pm
There is a single "P" lying on its left side stamped on the left side of the barrel just forward of the receiver.  Is that the P proofmark?

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by madsenshooter on Mar 10th, 2013 at 8:41pm
Yes, not a Numrich barrel.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 10th, 2013 at 11:23pm
I think Dick was right about whoever did the front sight.  They cut the dovetail without really paying attention to the position of the rear sight.

Can anyone recommend a good source for a 1903A3 front sight base and blade?

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by DocCasualty on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:18am
'03 sights are widely available.  eBay currently has at least a few listed.  Google brings up multiple hits, e.g. -   (You need to Login

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:53am
Here are a couple pics of my rear sight:
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The Fulton Armory seems like a good source, thanks.  I've added it to my Favorites List for gun parts.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by butlersrangers on Mar 11th, 2013 at 1:25am
gunboat57:  You may have to lathe turn your 24" Krag barrel and have a 'step' machined on the muzzle area to allow a 1903 Springfield front sight band to be fitted.  It is unlikely the 1903 front sight band will just slip on.  Once in place, the difference in diameter of the barrel, in front of and behind the '03 base, will not be noticeable.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 11th, 2013 at 2:56am
I was thinking about that step.  The end of my barrel mics at .642" dia.  I read somewhere online that the end of the 1903A3 barrels were .645" dia. where the sight fit on.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed that a 1903A3 sight may be a line to line fit or slightly loose.  In a couple weeks I'll get the parts and we'll see.

I almost forgot to mention, at first I was considering using the band front sight from a No1 MkIII Lee Enfield.  That definitely would've required turning a little off the diameter at the end of the barrel.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 16th, 2013 at 3:39pm
I received my 1903A3 front sight base from Numrich today.  It looks like it was taken off a rifle by a gorilla with a sledge hammer but I can pretty it up.  Best of all, it slips on with just a little twisting and covers up the dovetail in the barrel completely.

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I will probably fill in the dovetail with JB Weld.  I forgot that the 1903A3 retaining pin engaged a separate key that fit into the top of the barrel.  So to retain the sight base I think I'll drill a retaining pin hole like on the 1903 front sight base. 

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by DocCasualty on Mar 17th, 2013 at 3:22am
Looks like it's coming together.  Are you going to cold blue the sight?

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 17th, 2013 at 5:15pm
Yeah, I will polish it up and cold blue it, probably many applications, to try to match the barrel color.  I have a product that produces a finish that's almost black:  "Blue Wonder Gun Black".  I've gotten good results with it before.

Thinking again about how to attach the sight base, maybe I could just use solder like on the front sight bases of many Mausers.  The fit is close enough I should get a good bond.  In that case, of course, I won't even try to fill in the dovetail.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by tanker on Mar 17th, 2013 at 7:06pm
I have had good results using silver solder when a close fit is present. I believe with your situation I would first fill in the dovetail and file shape it, then fit the band and sweat it on. Filling the void should reduce muzzle flex when firing to a minimum. Brownell's sells a low melt temp silver solder compound that I have had very controllable and satisfactory results with.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by butlersrangers on Mar 17th, 2013 at 9:18pm
gunboat57:  Why don't you take a piece of mild steel, like a spike, and hammer some flats and file to shape to make a "key" or spline to fit the groove of your 1903-A3 banded sight.  You could have this fit your barrel dove-tail and angle its base to correct for the dove-tail not being at "12 O'clock".  Once the spline is fitted, the barrel band could be tapped into place.  A filed notch on the spline would allow the band to be locked into place with a cross-pin.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 19th, 2013 at 8:57pm
Well, after considering everyone's valued input, here's what I ended up doing.

Plan A:  I drilled straight down through the sight base near the back edge.  My intention was to put a set screw in the base that would tighten into a shallow hole drilled dead center in the top of the barrel.  My big mistake was choosing a 6-32 thread.  It's been my experience and the experience of a few machinists I've known that 6-32s can be difficult threads to tap.  My tap broke off flush just as it got through the hole.  I couldn't get it out no matter what so I just ground it off clean at both ends of the hole.

Plan B:  I drilled and tapped a shallow 6-48 threaded hole in the barrel at 6 o'clock.  I drilled a matching hole in the underside of the band on the sight base.  Once it's put together, a short set screw lock-tited into the hole will keep the sight base from sliding or twisting on the barrel.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 26th, 2013 at 7:44pm
Here's what the front sight looks like now.  The set screw that holds the sight base in place is sticking out a bit underneath.  It could use a bit of trimming.  I need to cold blue the sight base more also.
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Here's what the rifle looks like overall.  Barrel is 24 inch.  The stock was cut off (before I got it) but otherwise not thinned or shortened in the butt.  Swivels and buttplate are originals, just the way I like 'em.
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Very soon I'll be getting to the range to sight in.  I suspect I'll be taking some off the top of the front sight blade to zero with commercial ammo.  My plan is to use reduced power jacketed loads for groundhog hunting.  I might even dabble in cast boolit loads, too.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by DocCasualty on Mar 26th, 2013 at 8:51pm
Besides the sights now aligning, I think you've improved on the prior sporterization with the receiver mounted peep. I'll bet it's a better sight picture with quicker acquisition for picking off those varmints.

Title: Re: Sight Offset Question
Post by gunboat57 on Mar 27th, 2013 at 11:28am
Yeah, I had to admit to myself about 5 years ago that the notches on barrel mounted rear sights were made for 20-somethings, not for 50 year-olds.  If I'm going to use iron sights out to 100 yards on the varmints, I need a receiver mounted aperture.

Update a couple hours later:
I got to the range and did some shooting at 50 yards.  Rear sight was at its top setting, full height front sight blade.  I fired 3 of my reloads and one Winchester commercial round.
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Now it's time for some front sight height adjusting.  My goal is to have the commercial round hit .5" high at 50 yards when the rear sight is in the lowest position.  That'll leave me enough rear sight adjustment to zero my handloads at 100 yards.  Break out the file and the calculator!

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