I found this while doing some research on a Enfield I'm looking for. Wanted to share this with my fellow Krag lovers, This guy could have used some Krag Chargers.   (You need to Login        

Amazing video... thanks much for sharing!

(if that guy wants some chargers, I'll be happy to sell him a couple  ;) )

The guy with the Krag was just the better shooter of the two, I think.  10rd stripper for the Enfield?  How about two fives.  If it was 10, that's cheating!  Yea the Krag shooter should've ordered some chargers, he'd have really ripped the Enfield then.

Neither the Krag nor the S.M.L.E. exhibited feeding problems.  Pretty good performance of rifles using rimmed cartridges.  Be fun to enter a Spanish Model 1893  or Boer Model 1896 Mauser in the contest!  (I bet 'Jimmy" would have done better than either of those blokes)!

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I find it interesting that the guy with the Enfield stated "I have a longer barrel" and yet was bested by a Krag Carbine with a shorter barrel.  In my opinion, the Krag may not be the easiest to load... but is by-far the most accurate!  Oh, and the times weren't that far apart either... considering the guy loaded the Krag one cartridge at a time (he could have stripped five out of his belt and then dumped all five in at once... and save a few seconds).

I think that the guy with the Krag should have carried the catridges loose rather in a belt.  The reason the Krag was such a popular sporter in cold country is that you could load it even with mittens on.  Just throw 5 cartridges in the trap door and slam it shut.  I've never seen a rag magazine jam up.

Another point.    Due to their design (two piece stock and uneven flexing of the receiver and rear lug lockup of the bolt), the Mk 1 and Mk 4 Enfields were inherently inaccurate rifles, accurate enough for field use but not for serious target shooting or competition.  I'd pick the Krag every time (although I may be a little prejudice).

cdagnese:  You have your Lee-Enfield nomenclature wrong.  I believe you are referring to the Short Magazine Lee-Enfield Mark III (later called the Number 1 Rifle, Mark III) and the Number 4 Rifle, Mark I.  You are correct in pointing out some inherent 'engineering' weaknesses of the Lee-Enfield design.  The U.S. Krag also has some 'flaws':  single locking lug and inherently fragile stock.  I would agree with your view that most Krags seem to be a tad more accurate than Lee-Enfield rifles.  (I personally have found my Krags to be gentler on brass).  But, there are some Lee-Enfield Rifles that are fine performers and the Brits were certainly able to tune them up for fine match performance.  In all fairness, accuracy expectations should be about the same for a L-E or Krag.  (My Remington 1903-A3 beats them both)!  If these guys were really comparing Apples and Apples, they would have used earlier Lee-Enfield infantry or cavalry models that did not have 'charger-loading' capability.  After 10 rounds, the Krag would have had the loading advantage.  

What I particularly cannot stand is the absolutely inane dialog/script of 99% of such productions!!

Some questions about the "Enfield". Did they ever carry spare loaded magazines? IIRC the mag of the Jungle carbine (wish I'd kept it, though I do not know if is was real or fake) I once owned was removable. Did anyone else catch "10rd. stripper clip"? I thought they used two fives?

On the SMLEs and No4 Mk1 I own, the magazines are numbered to the rifle.  Someone can correct me, but reloading was done through stripper clips only, not by inserting a fresh loaded magazine.

Dick:  Madsenshooter caught the error about the 10 rd 'stripper' (The British actually call them 'chargers').  The early Lee-Metford Mark I had an eight round magazine ('chain linked') to the trigger-guard.  I believe the intent was to have spare magazines.  The British abandoned this idea and increased magazine capacity to 10 rounds and continued to 'link' the magazine to the guard.  'Charger-loading' was developed around 1902 for the Lee-Enfield, due to Boer War experience.  The State of Michigan issued spare magazines with their Model 1899 Remington-Lee Rifles in .30-40.  There were pockets on the Mills belts for the spare mags.  Although the British Lee-Enfield magazines are easily removeable, this feature was not really exploited and charger-loading made it unnecessary.

butlersrangers:

You're correct about the nomenclature.  My bad.    While the Brits made some decent match grade rifles out of derivatives of the Enfield, the field grade guns were notoriously inaccurate compared to the Krag. 
They built rifles like they built sports cars.  The Enfield also has a notoriously weak receiver.  Headspace problems are a constant problem with Enfield rifles.  Ask any one who reloads .303 British about stretched cases. The rear locking lug bolt design is a rather poor example of the gunmaker's art - ergo, the accuracy of the Mauser type action with it's forward dual locking lugs and the P13 and P14 American made Enfields.

If I remember right it was said Americans made the best target rifles, Germans made the most dependable, and the best battle rifle. After the U.S. Army converted to the O3 the National Guard would often beat them in matches with the Krags, because Krags were more accurate. The krag guy had the advantage because he had prior training on similar courses, that taught him to ignore the explosions and focus on the targets. I own several old guns my sporterized Krag is my favorite. I have a 1916 German Mauser Gew98 that I grouped a 5 shot pattern at 200 yrds with all 5 shots in a dime size hole. Still working on the krags aiming.

we guys I own most of the rifles that have been talked about and my No4MkIII is extreamly acurate. I love them all but have never tried to see which one is the most acurate. You have to one at least one before you can talk factually about them. My Enfilelds are great rifles, I have a sprot rifle, a full military both No4MkIIIs and one No5, they all shoot good but the full miliarty sots the best of all. I have a 03, 2 Garands, a M1 carbine, 2 Mod 98 Mousers and a Gew88, a Jap Arusockie 7.7, 3 differnt model Krags so I can speck from a position of knowledge on this one. My Krag can rapid fire standing at 75 feet and put then in a 5 in groupe.

Crazy as it may sound, the most accurate milsurp I ever owned was a 1918-vintage Lithgow No.1MkIII*. The stars must have been in perfect alignment when they built that one. It would shoot bug-hole groups all day long. What's even more weird was the Nazi acceptance marks all over it. I figured it was a Dunkirk pick-up. That one could've told some stories I'll bet. Yet another one I should have kept...

Well you guys are talking about the Enfield rifle not being that good of a rifle is news to me. Both of my Enfield rifles are very accurate rifles. as a matter of fact the record of the mad minute is 38 hits on a 12X12 target 300 yrds away. Lee Enfield's are only loaded with 5 round stripper clips because they were easier to carry and the Mag can only take 5 rounds at a time. When they changed to 308 the box mag had the same problem that it could only take 5 rounds at a time from a 10 round stripper clip.
Hey DICK as to my limited knowledge the only fake Jungle Carbine was or is made by Gibbs Manufacturing here in West Virginia and it has a nickel finish, It is a beautiful riffle and I think it's only in 308. OK DICK I just unlimited my knowledge a little bit they did make them in black.   (You need to Login

1 more thing Savage made a lot of Enfield's and they cut a slot in the bolt track to remove the bolt. I hare this design because after in is used a lot it starts to breaking and jambs the bolt. I like the British version better.

never had a P14 as of yet so can coment on that, but remember one thing the P14 is what SGT York won the Medal of Honor using when he shot and captured all of those Germans with.

Yes, but to be fair... Sgt York could have done it with a flintlock.  He was THAT good of a marksman!

I think it was said that the Springfield was a target rifle, the Mauser was a sporting rifle and the Enfield was a battle rifle.

The Krag shooter in the video did fine shooting overall but he should have kept the butt on his shoulder while he worked the bolt. He lost a little time and his accuracy suffered slightly.  A skilled .303 shooter could get off 25 aimed shots a minute, and that is with a cock-on-closing bolt.  The Krag shooter had a distinct advantage, as we all know.  I wish we could see a Krag match from a century ago.  As a seasoned bolt action deer hunter I know how fast accurate follow-up shots can score with the butt always on the shoulder.  Any old vets out there with bolt rifle experience?

some yes

Some of the No. 5 carbines were finished with black paint (by the arsenal) as well as some of the Enfield .38 S&W revolvers.  Reason being that jungle conditions and humidity in a tank where the revolvers were used) would promote less rust if the finish was paint. 
The P13 (.256 Cal), P14 (.303 Cal) and P17 or "American Enfield" (.30'06 Cal) were all the same gun, British designed but built in the U.S.A.  Sgt. York used the P17.  My comparison was between the No. 1, k 3, No. 4 Mk1 and the Krag.  Just look at the metal finish of each and you can tell which would be the better made rifle  The Brits are fine military guns, but the Krag is a piece of Art.

The Enfield Pattern 1913 was actually in .276 caliber.  The British were impressed with the performance of the 7mm Mausers used against them, during the Boer War in South Africa.  The Pattern '13 incorporated some Mauser design features and a reduced bore size (from .303).  The out-break of war in 1914 made a change of weaponry unrealistic.  A war time expedient was to have the new Enfield made in the U.S. in .303 caliber.  The Pattern 1914 Enfields were built by Winchester, Remington Arms and (Remington) Eddystone.  Feed problems and lack of parts interchangeability kept the British from issuing the American made Enfields in large numbers to front line troops.  The Pattern '14 did see use as a Sniping rifle and for reserve and training purposes during two World Wars.  (The Pattern '14 later was very popular with British Target Shooters).  The venerable S.M.L.E. proved its worth during WWI.  At Mons (Belgium), the German Army believed they were facing overwhelming British machinegun fire.  In reality, it was "Kitchner's Contemptibles" working the bolts of their S.M.L.E.s that brought the Schlieffen Plan to a halt.
  The U.S. was the true beneficiary of the Pattern '14 when it was revamped as the U.S. Model 1917 Enfield in .30-06.  This was another and brilliant war time expedient, necessary due to inadequate supplies of 1903 Springfields.

Lee-Enfields produced from 1888 to 1914 and in the 1920s were very nicely finished arms.  It is very difficult to find specimens that did not receive hard service or undergo modifications, re-building, and up-dates.  If you see a pristine example from those periods, the quality and workmanship is comparable to the U.S. Krag.  The Lee-Enfields are credited with having better metallurgy and are rated for slightly higher pressures than the Krag.  The British military did not reload and some chambers had generous tolerances for reliability under harsh conditions.
(This 1904 vintage, Sparkbrook made, S.M.L.E. Mark I, saw a lot of history but certainly was pretty when new).

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This video and conversation reminds me of bandoleers of 10 round "strippers" and "charger" guides for M14 and M16.

I was never issued a bolt gun in the service, but shot them at Perry.  We were taught to how to work the bolt while the rifle stayed in the shoulder. Even with 80 seconds to shoot 10 rounds, it made a big difference, for me anyway.

Butterbolt, when you shot bolt rifles at Camp Perry did they say anything on the best way to grasp the bolt?  I note in the video cited above that the Krag shooter used a palm up grasp which is slower for a fast follow-up shot.  I learned that the bolt should be grasped with the thumb and fore finger which places the finger directly on the trigger as it pivots down around the grip of the stock.  Also there is no need to take time to place the thumb around the grip in fast shooting.  Any experience on this bolt use?  Anyone else?

It works on the Enfild as I have tried in after I saw it used on Top Shot, but not sure if it would work on the Krag, If you have aome Large Meat Hooks it might work, but I know it will not work for me as I am a Lefty with Rifles.

Go to YouTube and search for "stangskyting" - a Nordic rapid fire course. They hold the bolt, full-time, with thumb and index finger - trigger is pulled with the middle finger. FAST!!! At least one of the videos has a Krag, using chargers.

I've seen that video Dick.  That guy is Freaky fast... and very accurate also!  I imagine that with practice, we all could be shooting that way in competitions. 

old shooter, I was taught thumb & forefinger, but use what gets you time & accuracy. 

My problem was with a cock on opening rifle, I couldn't get reliable torque to open every time.  Especially the year they issued really hot 30.06 Greek ammo.  I broke an extractor off my M1, and could hardly operate my 03 bolt with the butt in shoulder.

I was taught to push the rifle to the right and push the bolt up & left simultaneously, getting the strength of two arms involved.

When I get my 1917 running, it will ne interesting to see how a cock on closing bolt will work for me.

I have in the past pondered the working of Arisaka rifles.  I think the reason they have the somewhat odd shaped knob, and the reason we find them awkward to work is that the Japanese were taught to work them with their palms.

I am going to try the bolt handle grip some before Camp Perry.  It gives me a pull back into my shoulder that's hard to get while trying to grip the thin wrist of a 92/96.  I cut the end of my middle finger off many years ago in a paper cutter, it conforms to the curve of the Krag trigger pretty good.  I have about half dozen local matches I can try it in before Perry, matches where I'll only have 60 seconds to get 10 shots off.