gentlemen,
I have just aquired two(2) Krag's.  One is an absolutely beautiful 1898 rifle ,and the other is nearly the same but it's a cut down rifle in an outstanding M1899 carbine stock.  Now I also got eight hundred (800) rnds. of new WW ammo with the 220 grain round nose bullets.  What more can one as for?  I want to start reloading ASAP.  first off I want to try to duplicate the original round from Frankford Arsenal using a 220 grain round nose bullet.  I have ample stock of IMR 4064.  How many grains will it take to give me around 2000 fps?.
Your assistance would be much appreciated.

1stazmilitia

Howdy... and welcome!!!  Watch out - Krags are addicting!!!

Ok, first, congrats on your Krags. 

Now, loading to replicate the original Krag round is relatively easy.  However, I'm not sure you want to use 4064 to do this, as it is a faster burning powder more suited to 180 grain bullets or less (I use 4064 in my 30-06 rounds with a 150 gr FMJBT, and in my 7.7X58 Jap rounds with a 174 gr FMJBT).  To replicate the Krag round, the closest you can get is a 220 grain RN (I use Hornady) over 40.0 grains of 4350.  4350 is about as close as you can get to the original Laflin & Rand .30 caliber powder that the Frankford Arsenal used in all of the ammo at the time.  I use IMR-4350, but H-4350 or Accurate 4350 should give identical results.  If you still want to use 4064, then consult a good loading manual, like Hornady or Lyman, and then use sound judgment.  4064 IS listed under 220 grain in the Hornady 9th edition, but is not the preferred powder.

I also use a CCI-250 Magnum primer.  There is some discussion whether a magnum primer is necessary, but I started using them because there was talk of the 4350 not burning completely using a standard primer, so I started using the magnum and I've been happy with the results.  Also, remember that the military primers used over the years have historically been hotter than a standard, so there's that too.

The final advice I can give you is to be very careful trying to hit a certain velocity or ballistic with your Krags.  You need to make sure you keep things under 40,000 CUP or you risk cracking your locking lug... or worse!!!  The standard Krag round (220 gr RN, 40.0 grains of powder [4350 or Laflin & Rand]) should attain right around 1900-1950 FPS, which is plenty fast when slinging that big ole hunk of 220 grain lead!

Happy loading and shooting
Paul

Sierra's manual confirms that 4064 is just fine for .30/40 220-grain loads, giving similar velocity at acceptable pressure with lighter charges. Here's some of their data (from a 22" barrel) -

.308 220 gr. RN
Cartridge OAL: 3.000"

Vel. fps.     1800      1900      2000      2100            
IMR-4064      34.3      36.0      37.7      39.5      
IMR-4350      38.2      40.2      42.3      44.4

Standard primers should be OK for 4064. It's not hard to ignite.

Also, In the Lyman 49th Edition:

IMR-4064  Starting - 35.5 gr = 1910 fps
IMR-4064  MAX      - 39.5 gr = 2120 fps (39,000 CUP)

In the Hornady 9th Edition:

IMR-4064  Starting - 29.3 gr = 1600 fps
IMR-4064  MAX      - 34.4 gr = 1900 fps

As you can see...  Loads vary from manual to manual. 

For what it's worth, you can take pretty much anything Para says to the bank!  My earlier post is more about replicating the original Krag load.  If that is what you want to do, then as I said before... 40.0 grains of 4350 and you're good to go. 

In his "Pet Loads" book (collected reloading articles), Ken Waters wrote about loading the Krag cartridge and rifle.  He said something like "There is no reason to try for every last fps.  These are old rifles not suited for our modern loads".  Just because the cartridge case has the capacity and some of the loading manuals say that you can develop hotter loads does not mean that it is a good idea.

It is easier today to crack a bolt lug than it was in 1899.  I've done it.  A new jar of 4350 is cheaper than a replacement bolt body. 40.0 grains is a safe load.

Gentlemen,
Your response to my question has been very gratifying to me, and I have down loaded all of your responses. There is only one gun shop in my area, the rest are nearly a hundred miles, so powder is somewhat difficult to obtain.
I don't know if I should start a new question, but since I have you attention here goes.  On both of my new Krags, I noticed that the magazine boxes on both guns are quite difficult to open.  Is it because there were used very little?  The chamber one both show almost no use.  Bright bluing.
Your comments would again be much appreciated.

1azmilitia

'1stazmilitia' - The Krag magazine-gate will normally take a fair amount of effort to open, due to spring pressure.

Rust, dirt, and old dried out grease will increase the effort.

You may need to clean the magazine parts and 'hinge' of old hardened lubricant.

A light lubrication of the 'hinge' parts, magazine-gate follower spring, and bearing surfaces should lessen required effort.

---

Folks  -- This is my maiden post on KCA. And while it may seem therefore impertinent for a new guy on the block to offer an opinion, I thought it may offer another perspective on reloading.

My "center of gravity" is black powder cartridge shooting  --  Snider-Enfield's, Martini-Henry's, 50-70's, 45-70's etc  --.  So reloading is a necessity.  While black powder is very forgiving, old wood is not uniformly robust.  The jolt of a service charge on a dry stock is unpredictable.  Some can take it; some not.  It's very hard to predict.  Small, cracks along grain lines can open.  In-letting chips. And worse.   For me, caution recommends light loads.  But, not to worry, with age-induced poor eyesight, I find lighter loads work perfectly at my 100 yard limit!

This leads to a question.  Here, in the reloading section,  I embarrass myself.  I'm shooting my Krag rifle (1896, near mint).  Not having tooled-up as yet to make cartridges, I bought a box of the Remington 30-40 180 gr. "Core-Lokt" ammunition.  I must ask, is this ammunition in a safe enough range not to stress my Krag?  What are the characteristics/ballistics of the Remington load?  How close does it get to the red line 4,000 CUP?   

That's a number of questions rolled in one post; but HELP!

Annapolis

Remington is a SAAMI participant and therefore loads .30-40 ammo no higher than the SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure of 40,000 C.U.P., a safe level for any U.S. Krag in sound condition. Each production lot is lab tested to ensure compliance with industry standards.

See the Remington website for listed velocity  (24" barrel) -

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Fear not...  as usual, Para is right on top of things!  For most of us, Remington or Winchester factory ammo, loaded with a 180 grain spitzer bullet is what we started with.  Safe and relatively accurate! 

Make sure you save your brass, as 30-40 brass is getting extremely hard to find, and both Remington and Winchester are no longer making it for sale.

Butlersrangers,
Thanks for the tip.  Three drops of whale oil, and it loosened up just fine.  Now if the weather would only cooperate I'll take her out for a romp.

1stazmilitia.

Folks:  thank you for your help. I rest easy with the Remington ammunition for the first generation of shooting. 

Now, let me ask 2 reloading questions from whomever may help. 

1.  The Remington 30-40  220 gr  bullets that I see commercially available on-line, e.g. the Hornady, are all soft point.  Are there jacketed non-soft round nose  point bullets available, being more in form with the originals?  Who makes make them?

2.  I understand now that the Remington 180gr rounds are within the safe tolerance of my '96 Krag and will go to the range with them to harvest brass.  That being understood, I am nevertheless interested in shooting a reduced load that will be satisfactory at the 100 yard range.  I would ask for suggestions on the powder load  -- the brand of powder, type of powder and possible load  -- even if it is not likely to offer match accuracy. 

Thanks.    Annapolis

Annapolis,
Well since we are both riding my mule, may I respectfully call your attention to the information offered at the beginning of my request for assistance.  It satisfied my questions, and it should also be of help to you.
Good luck.

-1stazmilitia

I have always gotten very good accuracy with Remington 180 grain 'factory ammo' in my Krags. Don't look at this ammo as just a 'donor' for Brass. It may become your favorite loading!

I have also gotten fine performance with reloads using 165 grain spitzers.

Lighter projectiles are a good way to keep pressures down and lessen recoil.

Cast bullets also open a whole world of accurate and lower cost shooting.

There are many options if your main objective is accurate ammo for 100 yard targets.

IMHO - 220 grain projectiles are for rather specialized shooting.  Other choices may better meet a lot of shooter's needs.

Annapolis wrote on Apr 15^th, 2016 at 11:41pm:

1.  The Remington 30-40  220 gr  bullets that I see commercially available on-line, e.g. the Hornady, are all soft point.  Are there jacketed non-soft round nose  point bullets available, being more in form with the originals?  Who makes make them? 2.  I understand now that the Remington 180gr rounds are within the safe tolerance of my '96 Krag and will go to the range with them to harvest brass.  That being understood, I am nevertheless interested in shooting a reduced load that will be satisfactory at the 100 yard range.  I would ask for suggestions on the powder load  -- the brand of powder, type of powder and possible load  -- even if it is not likely to offer match accuracy.

Hornady USED to make a 220 gr FMJ bullet that almost matched the original in terms of dimensions... but sadly, they haven't made them in years.  Berger and Woodleigh make FMJ bullets but they are incredibly expensive (like almost $2 per bullet for the Woodleighs).  Sierra and Nosler both make 220 gr SP bullets, but both have a different profiles and shapes than original Krag bullets.  Hornady, although a soft point, is actually the closest to the original shape and ballistics.

As for load, most of us who shoot 220 gr bullets load them with 4350 (I use IMR, but Accurate or Hodgdon are just as good).  A 40.0 grain load is about as close as you can get to the original Krag round.  It's also time proven and safe!!!  This is the round I shoot in matches too.

IIRC, the Hornady 220 grain FMJ disappeared from the market in the 1980s, about the time that "bullet-proof" vests showed up in large numbers as police equipment.  I suspect that the FMJ 220 round nosed bullet would have gone through those "like corn through the new maid".

Folks: thanks for staying with me.  Pstein/Bultlers/1staz, you are very helpful.  So, here's my plan -- something along the lines of "compare & contrast."  I'm going to start out with the Remington 180's. 

After tooling up, the first reload effort will be Hornady 220 gr round nose soft points with 40 gr.s of  IMR 4350.

Then I'd like to find a load with less recoil and good for 100 yard targets.  So, for my last question (for a while) to you is what is your recommendation for this?  Butlersrangers, you had a lighter bullet and lesser load in mind?  Anything specifically you can share?   

Psteinmeyer, would it work if I continued with the 220 gr bullet, but just backed off the IMR 4350 a little, to say 38 grains?  I don't know what that does to the physics of pressure?   I have IMR 4227 and IMR 4831 at hand.  Is there something with these powders that will give good results?

As a foot note, I presently reload for my Martini-Enfield and use a Hornady .303  [#3130] 175 grain round nose soft point.  I use 18 grains IMR 4227.  This is a very light load, but works perfectly @ 100yds with a minimum of recoil.

And for my 1896 Lee-Enfield Mark I use a .312, 215 gr Woodleigh RN and reload with 37 grains IMR 4831 (and sometimes 39 gr.s)  Again, good results at 100 yd.s   

I'd value your recommendations.

Annapolis

I made up my first three test loads using 38.0 grs of IMR 4350 with the 220 Hornady RN.  I may go shoot them tomorrow so I'll let you know how it works for me.  (I'm sure they will work fine)  I will check the velocities too. My bore slugs at 308 and appears to have almost no use so we will see how it goes.

'Annapolis' - FWIW & because you asked - I have had good performance using 165 gr. Speer and 168 gr. Sierra Match Kings in .30-40.

I have started with 36 grains of IMR-4895 working up to 37 grains, W-W Large Rifle primers, cases Neck-Sized, and bullets seated to a OAL of 3.105".

I have also used the same projectiles with 40 grains of W-W 748, (because I have 7 pounds of the stuff!), with favorable results.

I have a friend who I shoot with at matches, all at 200 yards.  He WINS the matches every time he shoots his Krag (an 1896).  His load consists of a Hornady 150 grain RN bullet, and I believe he uses 4831... but I'm not positive about the powder (consult a load chart for a good 150 gr powder and charge).  He said he uses the lighter bullet and a light load for reduced recoil, which helps keep on target in Off Hand position (standing).

I've tried to make 150s work in my Krag, but the accuracy is not what I like... but here is the important thing to remember:  Not ALL Krags like the same ammo!  What works in one Krag, may not really work well in another.  Also, I worked the 150s with 4350, and a different powder would most likely give different results too!

Sticking with the 4350 and reducing the charge would result in a reduced recoil... but I can't guarantee the accuracy would remain the same, as the bullet would be moving slower, and thus ballistic would change.  Your 100 yard zero calibration on your rear sight would absolutely change, which is no big deal as long as you compensate for it at other distances, i.e higher at 100 yards = higher at 200 yards... etc.

Speaking of matches, There are usually CMP matches all over the place (I'm in Michigan, and there are a few every month near me in different cities).  If you are thinking of shooting it in a Vintage CMP match, let us know and we can help you with what to know about that.  The National Matches, held at Camp Perry Ohio are held every summer (end of July/early August), and are great fun too!!!  Lots of Krags show up for the Vintage Match.  Also, this year, there will be a Theodore Roosevelt commemorative match, which will be open to only Krag and early 1903 rifles.

Fired about 14 rounds of the Remington 180 factory stuff and my first three test loads.  So I have now put 23 rounds through the old gun.
The 180 gr Remingtons ranged from 2323 - 2470 ft. sec.  Most were in the 2390-2425 range.  They seemed to be more or less POA at 50 and 100 yards.  Once I got settled down and stopped looking at the gun and the cases every time I tried a little harder to aim properly and the last four rounds were all in the ten ring @ 100.
I also fired my Hornady 220 RN loads I made up with once fired brass.  I used 38.0 grs of IMR 4350 and they ran at 1780/ 1794/ 1817 ft/ sec.  They impacted about 1-1/2" low at 50 yards but I was still spending more time checking things than aiming so that is just a rough idea of what they were doing.  I did not have enough to test at 100 yards.  They seemed to be light loads and less hot than the Remington.  I will try 39.0 grs of IMR 4350 next time and see how much the POI comes up.  All cases looked fine but the fist time Remington loads do slightly distort the base of the case wall.  It appears to be more of a conforming the the wall than anything else.  The reloads using the once fired Remington cases did not exhibit any further changes.

BTW:  how many reloads are you guys getting out of the Remington cases since that is all that is around now?

I am well into double digits on some of my brass.  Anneal your case necks!  That will pay dividends in longevity!  The biggest problem I run into is cracking in the necks right at the lip.  Some cracks are very tiny and I don't really worry about them... but when the cracks start showing signs of gas leakage (i.e. carbon marks around the cracks) or the cracks are in the side wall of the neck, I immediately discard the brass - no sense tempting fate!!!

PSTEIN/BUTLERS/BM14/REINCAR:   I'm on the road and didn't have an opportunity to send you all a note sooner.  I very much value the courtesy and helpfulness of your replies.  All of you have added valuable parts to the puzzle from your experience.  I can now draw some base lines and then experiment with loads.  It will be a week or so before my first trip to the range.  I will post the first results then.  I am in your combined debt.  Thanks.   Annapolis

No problem at all... that's what we're all here for!  Let us know how things work out.

Are you thinking of shooting local Vintage matches or the Nationals?  Just curious...  A bunch of us here do!

Cheers
Paul

PStein:  I'd be interested in going to watch local vintage matches that may be in the Mid-Atlantic area.  I'm in Maryland.  I'm not familiar enough with my Krag to even think about competing -- ti would be presumptuous of me.  I do a lot of British vintage shooting, e.g. with the Victorian Rifles group at its annual "international," and wouldn't mind peeking around the corner at 45/70 and Krag contests.  Yet, just like to see what's it about for now.   Terry  (aka, Annapolis). 

If you go to the CMP site, and find Competition Tracker, you'll find listings of all of the CMP matches around the country.  You should be able to find one that's reasonably close to your location. For instance, Fort Hill Rifle and Pistol Club in Cumberland, MD is holding a As Issued Military Rifle Match (Vintage, Springfield, and Garand matches) on June 4th (might be a bit of a drive from Annapolis, but just as an example).  Most of the time, these matches are open to non-club members too. Anything that says Vintage is open for Krags and other mechanically operated military rifles.  Springfield is only for M1903/1903A1/1903A3 rifles.  I shoot in at least one match a month... and sometimes more - in addition to the National Rifle Matches.  I'd shoot every weekend, but I think my wife would kill me (she'd beat me to death with one of my rifles, LOL)!

Not too far from you. Maybe an hour or so.

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Saturday, April 30, 2016      
09:00 AM  - 01:00 PM      CMP Match - Garand/Springfield/Vintage Rifle Match
Maryland Rifle Club
200-yard High Power & Silhouette Range      

Saturday, October 01, 2016      
09:00 AM  - 01:00 PM      CMP Garand/Springfield/Vintage Rifle Match
Maryland Rifle Club
200-yard High Power & Silhouette Range      

Saturday, November 12, 2016      
09:00 AM  - 01:00 PM      CMP Garand/Springfield/Vintage Rifle Match
Maryland Rifle Club
200-yard High Power & Silhouette Range

Or an hour further...

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Or just plain shooting

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Culpeper/Pstein:  I really appreciate your help.  I'm familiar with the Thurmont range, going there with the Maryland Schutzverein a few times a year.  The Caroll County range is new to me and I shall follow up. 

In return, may I alert you all to something called the Victorian Rifles Association. It encompasses all British service firearms issued during the reign of Victoria.  So we go from flintlocks (75 cal)  to Mk I Lee-Enfields (303).  It meets in the Fall of each year at a range in the vicinity of Easton, Pa. for 2 days.  A lot of Martini-Henry's, Sniders, Lee-Enfields at 100 -200 yards.  There are several categories of completions and medals awarded.  Everyone is welcome.  Folks from GB, South Africa, Canada, U.S., Australia and fellow-travelers from Europe attend. A pig-roast has become a tradition.  Authors on military history offer evening discussions. 

Thanks again.  Annapolis

That sounds like a HOOT!  When does this take place?  I don't own any of those rifles (I am picking up a K31 today), but I might go just for a look-see.  Heck, maybe I'll be inspired to get a .303 Enfield!

Thanks very much for letting us know about this.