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Firearms >> U.S. Military Krags >> Krag rifle with 1895 receiver
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1487294784 Message started by realaleman on Feb 17th, 2017 at 1:26am |
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Title: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 17th, 2017 at 1:26am
Hello folks. A friend of mine has a Krag that belonged to his great grandfather. Granddad put a sporter stock on it supposedly back in the 1920s or 30's but otherwise left it all original so he said, even down to the military sling. The barrel measures 30 inches and has not been cut or replaced, as it has the original front sight and original crown. You can also see where there is still bluing left where the military top handguard used to be. I have shot sporter Krags a few times but am completely unfamiliar with Krag Model and serial number particulars or collectible Krags in general. As far as I can tell it is a Model 1892 which was converted to Model 1896 configuration by the military...? We took it to a guy who supposedly knows something more than we do and he said that as far as he knew all of the 1895 marked receivers were carbines, and that this may be rare. If so, my friend wants to find an original stock set or a repro to put on it. (Please bear with me, I am trying to post photos but so far all the ones I tried to put up were rejected because the file was too large. Maybe my daughter can come and help me tomorrow!) Would this possible be a Model 1892 with a 1895 receiver? The serial number is 2468(X).
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by madsenshooter on Feb 17th, 2017 at 5:50am
No, the 1895 receivers weren't all carbines. There were the Model 1896 Cadet rifles, 404 of them. The majority were 1895 receivers. I think 4 of them were museum examples made on Model 1896 receivers. There were also some, but not many, regular infantry rifles with 1895 receivers. I can't recall the particular serial # range we decided was right for the those cadet rifles, so I'll let someone else fill that in, but I think you might be in there! Those Cadet rifles were returned to the arsenal and converted to service rifles by adding sling swivels, filling the cleaning rod channel, filling the band spring slot, (Said filler might still be visible on your friends carbine, if it made it back into a modified cadet stock), drilling holes for the butt trap, Sometimes they got back in their thin wrist stocks, sometimes they wound up in thicker wrist 1896 stocks. A cadet rifle should have an 1895 cartouche. Lots of famous military minds at West Point during the short service life the 96 Cadet rifles had, chief among them, Douglas MacArthur.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by Parashooter on Feb 17th, 2017 at 5:52am realaleman wrote on Feb 17th, 2017 at 1:26am:
The serial appears to be either erroneous or fraudulent. All U.S. Krag serials consisted of numerals only, with no punctuation marks or letters. |
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by butlersrangers on Feb 17th, 2017 at 6:03am
'realaleman' - Welcome to the KCA Forum.
The full serial number will allow someone to check if this Krag is documented in SRS (Springfield Research Services) data. It would be fun to see photos of this Krag. |
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by Dick Hosmer on Feb 17th, 2017 at 2:47pm
That IS the correct serial number range for the cadets, as well as the very few standard rifles with "1895" receivers. I have owned barreled (cut to around 23.5", so not a carbine) receiver 24434 for many years.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 18th, 2017 at 5:34am
I put an X in parentheses in place of the last digit because I was advised not to post full serial numbers online. lol ...I don't know, maybe I am being paranoid. But the last digit is not an x.
Parashooter wrote on Feb 17th, 2017 at 5:52am:
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 18th, 2017 at 5:36am
Now I really am intrigued. I will get someone to help me post photos as I can.
Dick Hosmer wrote on Feb 17th, 2017 at 2:47pm:
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by butlersrangers on Feb 18th, 2017 at 6:25am
"Paranoid? ... We're not paranoid .... are we"???
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by psteinmayer on Feb 18th, 2017 at 1:30pm
LOL No reason to be paranoid here... you're among friends! there have been people that would hide the serial number leading people to believe that the gun is stolen, however That's not the case most of the time.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:27am
Going to give the picture thing a shot.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:27am
My camera isn't working so I had to borrow one.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:28am
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:29am
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:30am
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:31am
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:31am
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:32am
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:33am
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:34am
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:34am
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:35am
Last pic
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 1:36am
Sorry, one more. Is this an original swivel?
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by madsenshooter on Feb 19th, 2017 at 2:35am
In your #2 pic, I think I can see the remnant of a cartouche, at about the rear of the trigger guard, on the right side, not on the left where they usually are. But sometimes, I see things like that which aren't really there! If there is something there, then the stock was never a cadet stock, it would have came from one made over a year before the rifle was made. Oops, meant pic 2, fixed it. All this scrolling side to side, up and down, I'm getting the motion sickness again!
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 3:22am
I looked and don't see it. As the story goes, this is a custom made or aftermarket stock , not a modified military one. The rear sling swivel assembly was inletted and used. The front swivel assembly is a home-made affair. The sling is supposed to be an original Krag military sling though.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 3:31am
I looked at the stamping in the sling very closely with a magnifying glass and a flashlight held at an angle. It is a 1907 Pattern US military sling marked M.D.C. H&P 1918. A little too late to be correct for the Krag I'm afraid. But it would be good on a M1903 or a M1917... lol Perhaps it dates the stock a little better.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 19th, 2017 at 3:38am
I gave the bore on this rifle a good cleaning today. Had to buy a new graphite 36 inch cleaning rod as my brass sectional 30 inch rod wasn't long enough to clean it from the rear of the receiver. The bore is surprisingly good. Fairly bright and with no pitting. Has nice sharp rifling. The .30 caliber bore brush seemed to fit very tightly.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by butlersrangers on Feb 19th, 2017 at 6:27am
'realaleman' - Interesting family heirloom.
Krag, #24688, is listed by Franklin Mallory in: "The Krag Rifle Story", 2nd edition, appendix 20, as an - 1896 rifle issued in 1898 to Co. "C", 4th Ohio Volunteer Infantry. Although your rifle receiver was dated in 1895, it appears to have been built/assembled as a model 1896 rifle. It appears to me that your Krag has a model 1898 bolt, with the bolt handle 'bent down'. Also, I think your stock is a model 1896 military stock that someone cut-down, 'checkered', and reshaped. (p.s. - You are lucky. It is very rare to have a Krag serial number that is a "Hit" in the SRS data that Mallory researched and documented). |
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 20th, 2017 at 12:59am
Wow, that is impressive. Thank you very much butlersrangers for the information. I didn't think it was possible that the stock was a modified military one because it is a pistol grip style but I see now that you are correct of course.
There is a stamping on the underside of the barrel that I think is a "P". Does anyone know what this may mean? SANY1072.JPG ( 364 KB | 1
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by butlersrangers on Feb 20th, 2017 at 4:13am
The "P" on the barrel shows that, during the manufacture process, the barrel was 'proof' tested, with high pressure Proof Cartridges.
A similar "P" should be present on the front face of the receiver near the 'barrel index mark'. Krag-index-mark_008.JPG ( 68 KB | 0
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 20th, 2017 at 8:25am
A proof mark! How did that not occur to me? lol Thank you again. The old article in Scientific American is very interesting. Seven straightenings of the barrel during the manufacturing process...impressive. All of this stuff is fascinating to me.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 20th, 2017 at 8:31am
As for the bolt, so would the handle have to have been bent after it left military service or was a bent bolt one of the military variations?
I have read somewhere that all of the Krags went through a refurbish to 1898 standards at some point after 1898. Or maybe I am not recalling correctly. Would this have been the case with this rifle or did someone change the bolt later? |
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by psteinmayer on Feb 20th, 2017 at 11:50am
Someone would have to have changed the bolt. Also, all Krag bolts had straight handles, so it was most likely replaced and bent by the person who sporterized it.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 21st, 2017 at 6:45am
Oh wow. Perhaps we may buy an early type 1896 bolt from Granpa's gun parts. Would this rifle be worth putting any money into, as far as a restoration effort? As I understand it, Grandpa's sells original Springfield Armory parts.
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by psteinmayer on Feb 21st, 2017 at 11:53am
Restoration can be a pricey affair. On the one hand, you have an obvious 1895 rifle that still has it's full length barrel... one that HAS a hit on the SRS records too! However, you would need the correct stock, handguard, and barrel bands, and that could wind up costing you some serious moolah. Being a family heirloom, you might consider keeping it as is, and save up to buy another Krag in all it's full military glory.
What ever route you take, the decision can only be made by you. |
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by realaleman on Feb 21st, 2017 at 2:16pm
I have been looking on the internet and see that stock sets are not readily available. My thought is to just put the right bolt in it. I'll go with the "good" one. If there are headspace issues I'll move up to a "nos".
Oh, and then sell the sling so will still be a dollar or two ahead. |
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Title: Re: Krag rifle with 1895 receiver Post by butlersrangers on Feb 21st, 2017 at 9:14pm
'Movieman630', (aka. 'grampa's gun parts'), has original and properly identified parts. He is the grandson of the late Joe DeChristopher (a legendary and ethical U.S. military parts vendor).
I would recommend getting a model 1896 Krag bolt from him, while they are still available and reasonable. |
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