The batch of 20 pieces of .30-40 Krag brass I have been shooting in my Krag just hit 8 times fired. No cracked necks or any other damage that I can see. Always mild to medium loads, only fired in one individual Krag and always neck sized only. At what point should I toss this batch?

Marcus99 wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 9:17pm:

At what point should I toss this batch?

When they're no longer usable. Could last indefinitely with occasional neck anneal.

I have one batch of brass from the early '70s that has been fired 30x times.  I annealed the brass periodically and trim as needed.  No loose primer pockets so far (wouldn't expect that anyway).  Just a few cases have failed.

A lot of brass is worn out in the loading press, neck sizing only will help a lot to prolong the life of your brass.

I shoot a lot of Schuetzen type rifles where I use only one case that is re-primed and reloaded, never sized.  The primer pocket gets loose around 1000-1200 firings.

I have some brass that I've loaded and fired 10+ times...  I have over 600 rounds of viable brass, and I don't shoot nearly as much as I would like... so my brass turnaround is relatively low. 

I have never annealed my brass and I'm not sure how...  Maybe I should start doing this...  What is the process?  I have annealed steel before, so I am familiar with the basic theory, but just not with brass!

Thanks in advance!

Paul

psteinmayer wrote on May 9^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

I have never annealed my brass and I'm not sure how...  Maybe I should start doing this...  What is the process?  I have annealed steel before, so I am familiar with the basic theory, but just not with brass! Thanks in advance! Paul

There are several techniques.  Two I've used is to stand fired cases in 1" of water (to protect the case head from excess heat) and aim a propane torch at the case mouth.  Just as the mouth starts to get cherry red, tip the case into the water.  Alternately, hold the case head in your fingers and heat the case mouth.  When the case head gets hot to the touch, drop the case in water.

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When brass looks "cherry red", it's way too hot - grain structure is damaged. Direct flame at shoulder and stop when color change extends 1/4 to 3/8" aft. No water is needed. Air-cooling spread out on a metal pan is safe, effective and quick.

Thanks much Kirk and Parashooter!  Now for the next obvious question?  How often should I do this?  As I said, I have tons...  I obviously won't anneal the once fired, but I may just go ahead and anneal the rest of my cleaned brass to be sure (better safe than sorry).  I must admit that I don't neck size, although I never see much evidence of the main case body touching the die anyway...  Maybe I need to rethink that, based on my recent accuracy experiment (which didn't turn out nearly as accurate as I had hoped)...  I have the powder/bullet and reloading in general down pat, but with such a wealth of knowledge on this forum...  I am always open to new ideas!

I think I annealed the cases after each 10 firings. 

By neck size, I mean that I screw the die in until it is about .1" above the shell holder.  I lube the case (trimmed), leaving a small dab of lube at the jucture of the shoulder & neck.  I then size the case, progressively screwing the die in until the dab of lube shows signs of being squeezed.  I then clean the case & chamber it.  If the case shows any resistance at all when the bolt is closed, I turn in the sizer die a half turn (a 7/8" x 14 tpi thread advances .07" per turn so a half turn is .035") and check again until the bolt closes with no resistence.  I then lock the die in place.  A die so adjusted does not set the shoulder back but completely sizes the neck - as long as the case is always shot in the same rifle. 

Another rifle may require a different adjustment.  When doing this for a Garand & M1903, I adjust the die for the ahortest chamber; the case should will show some expansion on the longest chamber.

Should I anneal the cases before sizing, or after?

Paul:  Anneal your cases slated for annealing before the next resizing.

Thanks Chuck! 

I'm going to shoot in the match at Washtenaw Sportsman Club next month.  I have a lot of work to do before then...  Going to have my barrel slugged, and I'm going to shoot cast for the first time!  I'm really looking forward to it!  I have to anneal and load a couple hundred rounds!

Paul

Hi Marcus,

If you are neck sizing, you should be able to 'feel' how hard the brass is by the force needed to run the die over the neck, and especially dragging the expander plug back out.

The looser the chamber neck size, then the more the brass gets worked. Check how sloppy a projectile fits in the fired brass neck, those old military chambers were made pretty loose !

Generally, I full length size & anneal about every 5-6 mild reloads when the bolt is starting to close with a bit of 'drag' which will upset a single bolt lug accuracy.

More importantly for safety is checking the inside near the case head to see if separation is starting. Thinning and cracking happens inside there long before you see any hint on the outside. This happens faster with full length sizing and with hot loads for the action.

I attached a photo of a small tool made from a piece of car aerial, bent and ground to chisel edge to act as a 'stylus'. A mere pointed end tends to rotate sideways and loose any 'feel'.

Run this up the inside of the case about 1/4 inch infront of the rim feeling for cracks (which catch the tip) or inside grooves (which you can feel as 'dips') indicating that the case is going to separate soon. Rotate the case a 1/4 turn each time because separation does not occur symmetrically.

Out of a batch of 20 cases, typically I will throw a couple away after several shots, whilst the rest can last into the dozens of reloads depending on the load and the action.

At my military rifle club shoots, there is always a cheapskate using brass which you can see from the outside as 'stretched and granular' just where the case head thins to the wall. He often gets case head separations, fortunately he uses a K98 Mauser so a bad on just blew the magazine floor plate out and scattered brass fragments over the concrete. I don't think a Krag would handle that too well. I make sure I shoot in a different detail to him.

Cheers,

Rob

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Hi again Marcus,

I noticed a few other posts on annealing.

Do NOT get the case head or anywhere near it hot because the brass will lose its strength where it is needed for a gas seal.

I stand the cases in a tray of water with just the neck & 1/4 inch below the shoulder sticking out.

In a low light room, hit the neck with a small blow torch until the neck faintly glows just down to the start of the shoulder then tip the case over into the water. You may need to play the torch around a bit to evenly chase the heat down if using a small burner.

Quenching anneals the brass and reduces the time it is heated.

Cheers,

Rob

There is a beauty in rimmed cartridge cases like the .30-40 Krag and .303 British.  They Head-Space on the rim thickness (not from the bolt face to the chamber shoulder).  In the event of a case separation, the case head and rim still keep most of the hot gases in the chamber and barrel.  In a rimless cartridge, there is not this 'extra seal' and a large volume of hot expanding gas comes harmfully into the Action.  I do not take head separations lightly.  The .30-40 and .303 British should be viewed as 'Head-Spacing' both on the rim and on the chamber shoulder.  Every time these cartridges are fired, the case shoulder and body move, if necessary, to make contact with the the chamber walls and shoulder.  This is why it is desirable to neck-size only, when possible.  From my experience, the U.S Springfield Armory seems to have held pretty tight tolerances on Krag chambers.  All of my 1898 Krags will accept, or almost accept, cases fired in one of their 'brothers'.  The front locking lug and metallurgy of the Krag are not as "springy and elastic" as I have found (rear-locking) Lee-Enfields to be.  I believe the British also utilized greater tolerances in their chamber dimensions.  This is maybe good for service in the field but bad for re-loaders!  I once had a Short Magazine Lee-Enfield that was re-built in 1953 and had a brand new B.S.A. barrel on it.  I reloaded for it with new commercial brass and a Lee Loader that neck sized only.  By the third loading, I was getting complete head separations.  Not a whiff of gas to the rear and good accuracy on paper, but that darn rifle destroyed my 303 Brass base!  I have not encountered head separations in my Krags.  I have had an occasional case split near the shoulder in Remington Factory Ammo (probably 1 time in every 75 rounds).  I feel confident with Krag safety but annealing case necks, neck sizing only, and "feeling case interiors" for incipient case separations is good practice. 

Thanks a lot for the replies and advice. I have never heard of annealing brass until this thread, I learn more about reloading every day. I've been shooting my Krag a lot since I got it (50rds per month give or take) because I'm still enamored with it; eventually that will peter out. I don't have a torch although I'm guessing I could use one of those handheld ones. How long will the brass last if I don't anneal it, because in the longterm I don't see myself shooting my Krag very often.

Marcus, I have been reloading for decades and I've never annealed yet.  I would venture to say that with careful reloading and relatively low pressures, your brass should last a very long time. 

That said, I am going to anneal all of my brass this weekend!  If I had known about this, I would have been annealing my brass all along...  An inexpensive butane or propane torch should be available at your local walmart.  I see it as a simple yet effective trick to preserve brass for decades to come.  Even if you don't plan to shoot much in the future, there may come a time when you will... and good brass might not be readily available.

I am truly grateful to Butlersrangers, Parashooter and kirk, and all of the other posters who have helped me to learn way more than I ever could have learned on my own! 

Well, I cleaned, trimmed and annealed 250 cases today!  I used a case holder (for trimming), and chucked each case in my drill, and then slowly rotated to heat evenly.  As soon as the case neck changed color, I release and dropped them into a metal bowl to cool...  Worked like a charm!

I have been thinking on this, and for those of you who are quenching your cases, I think it's a mistake.  I'll explain:

Years ago, I worked for GM at the proving grounds.  I had the opportunity to machine parts, and I know a little about metallurgy.  When you anneal steel or any other metal (except aluminum), the object is to make the metal pliable, so that it is less brittle and susceptible to cracking.  A good example of this is a band saw blade - when welded, if the weld is not annealed, the weld will break.  In the machine shop... when annealing metal, the process is to heat metal slowly, and allow to air cool slowly.

Quenching, on the other hand, is normally how metal is hardened.  Bringing metal to glowing and then quickly quenching the metal in water, oil, or any other liquid will make the metal hard... and in the case of brass, (in my opinion) more brittle!

Of course, I'm no expert... especially when it comes to brass rifle cases, I can only speak from past experience working with metal.  I hope that this helps some people, or at least sparks some further discussions!

Paul

Hi Paul,

You are right about quenching for ferrous alloys.

Copper alloys, however, are more fully anealed by quenching from a higher temperature which preserves the larger grain growth.

Probably doesn't make much difference for our purposes, but not having any control over temperature, I heat enough for the neck to glow in a dimly lit room and then quench to reduce oxidation at such a high temperatures.

Oxide colours vary with the precise alloy (mostly zinc content) and takes some practice to read. However, it does reduce oxidation by heating to a lower temperature.

Cheers,

Rob

The quenching has to do with stopping the heat from migrating to the lower part of the case and nothing to do with annealing the brass.

I use a candle or a small alcohol one-wick burner.