Hello guys.  ;)

I'm from France (excuse me for my poor english) and I was seeking for a US military krag-Jorgensen for a very long time. This kind of rifles are very-very rare around here.
Some days ago, at last, I found one. A 1898 model (#223373), formerly sporterized with an aftermarket shoulder stock, peep sight (diopter) and Lyman front sight.

All parts are original except the stock. No original rear sight.
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This rifle would have been found on a WW1 american airfield in north-east of France, after the war.
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I do not plan to change the front and rear sights, but I would like to find a reglementary rifle shoulder stock to give to this rifle a more military look.
Something like this :
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All help will be welcome.

Cheers...

Francois.

First, welcome to the forum, and to the wonderful world of Krags.  I think you will find that they are among the most accurate and smoothest operating rifles ever made. 

Your rifle looks to be a very nice sporter, and well done too.  Although it's barrel has been cutdown, it should still perform well as a good shooter.  Rather than replace the stock, you might want to look for an original military Krag to compliment your sporter.  They can be found for decent prices on sites like the CMP, Gunbroker, etc.   I don't know all about the laws in France, and whether they can be imported, but it's an option.

If you're set on replacing your stock with a military stock, they can also be found on ebay, and other sites.  Rear sights and hand guards can be found too.

Good luck with what ever you decide to do, and keep us informed!

Paul

Welcome Francois to the KCA forum.  There cannot be very many U.S. Krag rifles in Europe.  It was not even appreciated, until recently, that some Krags went to England and France in 1917 in the hands of some U.S. Soldiers.  It appears, these Krags were utilized by U.S. Troops for training and guarding Railways.  Your Krag has been converted into a useful 'Sporter'.  I believe your gunstock is an altered U.S. Military stock.  (I have attached a copy of a picture taken of two men in the Philippine Constabulary, around 1905.  The man on the right is holding a PC Krag , like the one pictured in your message.  These are very rare altered Krag rifles.  It is possible that not one legitimate PC Krag is in the U.S.  However, similar 'School' rifles are common and could be easily made by anyone).

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Francois:  If you are thinking about restoring your Krag to its original U.S. Military configuration or appearance, this is a very expensive and unwise plan.  Your Model 1898 U.S. Krag was originally an Infantry Rifle and the barrel was 30 inches long (76.2 centimeters).  An original barrel, stock, hand-guard, rear sight, and barrel bands are now hard to find an will cost $700 to $800 in the United States.  (A decent original Model 1898 U.S. Krag is worth $700 to $800).  Enjoy your altered Krag "Hunting Rifle" as it is!

  (Photo of my three Model 1898 'Krags' - "stacked").

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Picture of a U.S. Model 1898 Krag that is undergoing restoration.  This one is practical because only the stock was shortened.

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This is a detail picture that shows how the Krag front sight appears on U.S. Rifles and Carbines (when issued from Springfield Armory for U.S. Troops).

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The carbine sight blade was shorter than the one for the Infantry rifle.

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I am most interested in the stock as it is at present.  Would you please post a photo showing the stock in some detail?  I have had a similar Krag since 1962 and would like to compare stocks.

reincarnated wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 7:33am:

I am most interested in the stock as it is at present.  Would you please post a photo showing the stock in some detail?  I have had a similar Krag since 1962 and would like to compare stocks.

Hi all, thank you for your welcome.

@reincarnated: the stock is well made. The inletting of receiver and barrel is perfect. The buttplate is made of dark brown ebonite and shows the brand "BAKER". There is a tiny marking under the pistol grip "BL18" or something like this.

@butlersrangers: I do not have a PC shoulder stock on my rifle, but would like to find an original (or repro) Krag rifle stock and upper band to turn my sporterized Krag into a look-alike PC.  ;)  Importing a Krag rifle from USA is possible, but expensive (at least two times the initial rifle price) and administratively heavy.  :-/

There are a wealt of good pictures at the front pagehis web site with all different of t versions and types of makes and models for you to look at. If you have needs for mote detail I am sure the members here that have the 1998 models will be glad to help. I have 3 model 1894 rifle, a model 1896 carbine and a model 1898 cut down, but my cut down 98 is not one for pictures as it is a parts only gun and the Bubba the did the damage to the wonderful rifle should be beat down with what is left of the rifle. Welcome aboard the site, hope we can help you out as much as possible! What part of Frace do you Live in? I live in the RIchmond Virginia area.

Your English is good, while not  perfect it is good, and I am sure if most of us here in the USA were to respnd in Frech you would laugh and snicker at us trying to use your launage also. Once again welcome aboard!

oxi81, don't worry about your English - we are all friends here, and I actually had a "worse" language "problem" recently with a very nice gentlemen from Australia - a lot of different terminology!

Anyhow, if you really want a military-looking Krag, you will have to make some compromises. Since your barrel has been cut to a non-standard length, there is no military stock which can be directly swapped without modification. Rifles had 30" barrels (except for the exceedingly rare 100 26" versions made in 1902) and carbines, 22"

The PCR (Philippine Constabulary Rifles) and "school guns" (so-called because they were made for issue to colleges) are an identical modification based on a carbine, retaining the 22" barrel. So, a rifle stock is too long, and a PC stock is too short.

The suggestion that you buy another one, in full proper configuration, is really the number one choice, but if that is out of reach, there are options. You could buy a cheap one with uncut barrel plus an extension to fix the stock (as noted in post above). Trying to find all the parts for yours, would be financially prohibitive here, but maybe worth doing in France. I also suspect that parts would be much less hassle than a fully-operable rifle - it certainly was in Australia.

Anyway, stay in touch, and we will help as much as we can.

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Francois:  Your Krag has to have an interesting, but untold history (a 'sporterized' U.S. Krag that got to Europe).  More detailed photographs of your front sight, diopter rear sight, and stock would allow forum members to offer insights about your rifle.  How long is the barrel on your Krag?  You said the front sight is a Lyman.  Is it possible that the front sight base is a 1903 Springfield 'banded' sight base that is holding a Lyman blade?   I think your diopter sight is an early Lyman 48k.
  I believe you would like your Krag to look more military.  Probably the most practical route is simply to replace the stock with a rifle stock that has been cut-down to carbine length.  During the 1920s to 1930s the U.S. government sold off the Krags to citizens.  To make the rifles more marketable, some were altered at Benicia arsenal in California.  The rifle barrels were cut to 22 inches, a 1903 Springfield front sight was installed and the rifles were given a carbine stock or cut-down rifle stock.  These altered rifles are often called 'DCM' or 'NRA' carbines.  They were not a military model, but an alteration for the Civilian market.  They are attractive and practical.  I am attaching a photo of a Krag that was sporterized.   I replaced the stock with a rifle stock that was cut down and put a hand-guard and rear sight on it.  It has the appearance of one of the 'DCM/NRA carbines'.  Also in the photo is an 1899 Krag carbine.   

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My fake DCM/NRA carbine at the range:

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Hello folks.... Thank you for your welcome and for your interest in my old Krag rifle.  :)


Top Dean wrote on Dec 7^th, 2013 at 1:00pm:

There are a wealt of good pictures at the front pagehis web site with all different of t versions and types of makes and models for you to look at. If you have needs for mote detail I am sure the members here that have the 1998 models will be glad to help. I have 3 model 1894 rifle, a model 1896 carbine and a model 1898 cut down, but my cut down 98 is not one for pictures as it is a parts only gun and the Bubba the did the damage to the wonderful rifle should be beat down with what is left of the rifle. Welcome aboard the site, hope we can help you out as much as possible! What part of Frace do you Live in? I live in the RIchmond Virginia area.

I live in southwest of France.
I know that my english isn't very good, but it's my school english and I'm 51 y.o. now.  ::)

@Dick Hosmer : I would like to turn my Krag into a PC krag / "school gun" clone similar to this one :

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But with M1903 style front sight and rear diopter. I already have an original RIA 1903 sling.
Just have to find out a rifle stock that I will shorten.


butlersrangers wrote on Dec 8^th, 2013 at 6:39am:

Francois:  Your Krag has to have an interesting, but untold history (a 'sporterized' U.S. Krag that got to Europe).  More detailed photographs of your front sight, diopter rear sight, and stock would allow forum members to offer insights about your rifle.  How long is the barrel on your Krag?  You said the front sight is a Lyman.  Is it possible that the front sight base is a 1903 Springfield 'banded' sight base that is holding a Lyman blade?   I think your diopter sight is an early Lyman 48k.

I will take ASAP some pics of the Lyman front sight and the diopter sight.
The barrel is 54cm / 22 in. long

The rear sight diopter :
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The Lyman front sight :
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Lyman mark on the blade (tiny but readable with a magnifier).

No reservation for a military on-barrel rear sight (no threaded holes) :
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My original sling :
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Francois

Francois/oxi81:  Thanks for posting the nice additional pictures of your handsome 'sporterized' Krag.  Again, I would recommend leaving this rifle as it is.  You have a very desirable original U.S. Krag sling.  I think your rear sling swivel is a French military one.  Your front sight is a 1903 Springfield sight with a commercial Lyman blade replacing the military one.

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1903 Springfield 'upper' bases with original blades and "Marble" brand commercial blade, shown.

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Francois:  Your rear 'diopter' sight is a Lyman #48-K made specifically for the Krag.  This sight required that extra holes be drilled into the Krag receiver and some wood had to be removed from the stock.  My reference source indicates this is the 2nd variation of this sight.  The elevation slide was shorter with markings going to 125.  The adjustment knobs were regarded the 'Hunter' style rather than 'Target' style.  The second variation was made from 1919 to 1947.
     It is possible that your barrel is a 1903 Springfield barrel that was shortened at the breech, re-chambered for the .30-40 cartridge, and fitted to the Krag action.  Lots of Gunsmiths did this to replace rough & pitted Krag barrels.  This would explain the absence of rear sight holes on your barrel.  A reused 1903 Springfield military barrel will have an Ordnance Bomb marking and date on the barrel behind the front sight,  There is also a notch across the bottom of the barrel for a cross pin that held the rear sight collar in place.

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1903 Springfield barrel with 'notch' (normally on bottom of barrel) for rear sight collar.

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Francois:  If your barrel is an original Krag barrel, there will be a "P" (proof mark) like this.  You have to take off the stock to find it.  Also, there will be rear sight holes (possibly expertly filled and subtle) approximately 8 1/2mm and 14 1/2mm in front of the receiver ring.

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Thank you very much for this rear sight identification.
I just need to find a sight aperture now.

For the barrel, there is no marking near the front sight band, nor "P" near the receiver, nor any notch. In fact, the barrel is totally blank.

Francois

Francois:  Look for a "P" on the barrel below the wood.  Also, look for two small circle 'spots' on the top of the barrel (8 1/2mm and 14 1/2mm) in front of the action that show a faint difference in metal finish (holes filled with finished off screws).  If these features are absent, the barrel must be a non-Krag replacement.
     Any Lyman, Redfield, or Williams Sight Disc should fit your Lyman rear sight.  For Hunting, these were left off to improve field of vision.

Francois:  Your Krag 'Sporter' must have been fitted with a non-military/commercial barrel.  How is the condition of the bore?

I would leave it as-is. It's a very nice sporter, and will require a lot of work to make into a semblance of an as-issued rifle. (Barrel, stock, and Lyman 48 screw holes to be filled. Then comes the added expense of the as-issued stock furniture: bands, butt plate, etc., and then sights.)

Francois:  Your Krag seems to be a nicely done conversion to a hunting rifle.  It would be fascinating to know the story of how it got to France.  In wooded Deer hunting States, like Michigan, Wisconsin, New York, Pennsylvania, Oregon, and Washington, shortened Krags made excellent and inexpensive hunting rifles.  Converted Krags  (skillfully to poorly done in the 1920s & 1930s) are relatively common and small companies once prospered offering sights and accessories.  Your Krag falls into the skillfully done category.

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butlersrangers wrote on Dec 12^th, 2013 at 6:48pm:

Francois:  Your Krag 'Sporter' must have been fitted with a non-military/commercial barrel.  How is the condition of the bore?

I also think that's a commercial/aftermarket barrel : no marking, and no small circle in the top of the barrel. This barrel has never been drilled for a rear sight installation.
The bore is excellent, as new.

A question about the 30-40 Krag cartridge : may I reload with the same bullets than my M1903 (180gr HPBT)..? or is it better to reload with RN bullets?

Lots of Krags seem to feed 'pointed' bullets, like your 180gr. HPBT, without problem.  In some rifles, the point of the bullet will hang up on the breech face of the barrel.  It is a matter of 'trial and error'.  RN nose bullets generally feed smoothly without problem.  You have to experiment to see what works trouble free in your Krag.

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Thanks again for your all your advices.
I will try this reloading at the range (200m/218yd) as soon as I get my 30-40 Krag dies and the aperture sight disk. I'll take some pictures.

Have a nice day...  ;)

As you already know, I want to buy an aperture disk for my #48 Lyman sight.

I found some on Midway.com :
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or on Buffaloarms :
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I'm a total newbie in diopter rear sight technology.
I know that I need to buy a 3/8" diameter disk, but what's the best opening hole for a 200 yards shooting range? .050 or .093? Or is it better to buy both?

Thank you.
Francois

At your age, get the bigger hole.  I'm 56, the smaller the hole the fuzzier the front sight for me.

I bought .050 and .093 sights.  I thought I'd use the .050 for target and .093 for hunting.  Turned out that the .050 was too small for any purpose for me.  I'm 56.

;D I'm only 51 y.o.
I ordered a .093 disk... thank you.

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It's done.
Here's my M1899 constabulary carbine clone. Shortened 1902 rifle stock, repro handguard.

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Francois

Francois: Your Krag appears very nice. You did a good job matching the wood finish of your Stock and Hand-guard. I hope your Krag is a real 'tack driver' for you (a very accurate rifle)! It is good to see a Krag in France. Enjoy.

(Photo from 1912 Stockholm Olympics - Teams of France and U.S.A., next to each other).

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I guess the photo of my school gun (above) is only - and theoretically at that - "safe" from unauthorized copying while on the original host site?

I don't know Dick. I have never copied any of your photos.

I try to use my own pictures or ones that are already in the public domain.

Wasn't you, Chuck, but rather "oxi81". However, I believe I have used that one on this board, so it is available - but that is why I started to mark them.

Ned - you do not need to take it down, but thanks for offering to do so. Guess I was just 'thinking out loud' and probably should have kept it to myself.

There is a guy in the midwest who runs a sort of "museum on line" that HAS managed to copy several of my pics, as well as many from Ken McPheeters and a host of others, all without credit or note of any sort. He doesn't even have the courtesy to respond to emails.

Going back under my rock, now.  :-)

Dick Hosmer wrote on Apr 13^th, 2015 at 5:21pm:

I guess the photo of my school gun (above) is only - and theoretically at that - "safe" from unauthorized copying while on the original host site?

Hi Dick. Sorry, I missed your answer.
Don't worry, I used your picture for this thread and on this forum only.  ;)

Francois

Hello, and thanks for the note. Not a problem - after all, it was me who put the pics out there - and - I have since learned that it IS possible to copy them from my hosting site even though they let you believe it isn't. Have a great day.