Krag Collectors Association Forum Archive
Firearms >> U.S. Military Krags >> Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1430107895

Message started by JWWFM on Apr 27th, 2015 at 4:11am

Title: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by JWWFM on Apr 27th, 2015 at 4:11am
I have the same problem on both of my 1898 US Springfield Krags -- rounds jam as the bolt picks up the rim of the case. Happens with factory ammo as well as reloads with spitzer bullets and round nose bullets. Reloaded spitzers are shorter than max COL, round nose are right at max COL. Sometimes a really hard whack on the bolt handle chambers the round -- I only try that with dummy rounds-- and it appears that the edge of the feed ramp or chamber is shaving a tiny piece off the bullet tip on one side. The case seems to be out of position as I start the bolt forward and may be rising after it is too far forward. If before I move the bolt forward I slightly click the cutoff lever toward "off" (to cut off the magazine feed) it bumps the round up toward the bolt about 1/8" and then everything works until the last round. The last round won't come up to the bolt. Could the problem be in the magazine spring? I'd appreciate any ideas on what to check or adjust.

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by Ned Butts on Apr 27th, 2015 at 11:03am
It sounds like you are headed in the right direction. I would examine the cut off for defects ad/or replace it. Also it seems that the follower spring is weak if the last round will not push up into place so replacing that should help.

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 27th, 2015 at 5:27pm
"JWWFM": Welcome to the KCA Forum. I'm sorry you are having magazine feed problems with both of your Model 1898 Krags. It is interesting that the same problem is being encountered on two rifles and with all types of ammo (RN & Spitzers, Factory and Re-loads). Since, you describe 'fiddling with the cut-off to get cartridges in position', I think your problem is not just concerning the last cartridge. I took the liberty of posting a response in another similar thread so that it appears near to this one. It may be helpful to you.

FWIW: I measured the OAL of two original Krag military rounds, Frankford Arsenal '98 (3.060") and Kynoch '99 (3.082"). I reload mainly 165grain and 168grain Spitzers to a maximum 3.087" OAL and have had no feed problems in my 1898 and 1899 Krags. (It does not appear you have a problem with your ammo).

Over the years, I have had the pleasure of being the custodian of 11 U.S. Krags and 1 Norwegian (a mixture of original and sporterized). I have had the good fortune of no broken or weak magazine-door/follower springs (a surprisingly rare event) or of blatant feeding problems.

I think the following are the most likely 'suspects':

1. Old dried grease and crud inhibiting the movement of the follower arm/carrier assembly or the single flat spring that powers it, while that spring also keeps tension on the magazine door.

2. Old crud or damage to the inside of the side-plate which prevents cartridges smoothly traveling up its inside radius. The side plate should be clean and fully seated against the receiver.

3. The possibility of Model 1896 parts (side-plate and/or follower/carrier assembly) on a Model 1898 action (Unlikely on both rifles, but, model 1896 parts are different and would likely cause feed issues).

4. The Magazine Spring is weak or broken. This is unlikely on both rifles. If the spring was broken, there would be no cartridge feed. A weak spring would be evidenced by 'wimpy' magazine-door action.

Recommendation - next post

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 27th, 2015 at 6:55pm
'JWWFM': I recommend you remove your Krag's barreled action from the stock. Remove the side-plate and do a visual and tactile inspection of the cartridge feed-path. With the magazine-door closed, Push the follower/carrier inward and test smoothness and spring function. (Follower should project out of the side of receiver, when side-plate is off). It does not take tremendous spring pressure to feed the Krag, just a full range of motion.

Turn the 'head' of the Magazine-door hinge pin, gently lifting up on its flat spring. It rotates open like a door and exposes the tip of the follower/magazine-door spring, where it engages the cam of the follower/carrier arm (clean and lightly lubricate this contact point).

Clean all surfaces with Hoppes #9 on patches and Q-tips. Work the magazine cut-off and observe how it functions. Remove all hardened grease from metal parts and check for obstructions, bent or damaged parts, and burrs. Lightly! lubricate metal surfaces with a film of CLP on a dampened patch.

I hope this helps you.
Krag-follower_008.JPG ( 55 KB | 0 Downloads )
Krag-mag-sprg_013.JPG ( 73 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 28th, 2015 at 1:36am
Model 1898/1899 Krag cut-off function:

1. When the cut-off lever is 'down' the cut-off shaft rotates into a position that pushes the lead cartridge down and thus prevents the rim from making contact with the bolt face.

2. When the cut-off lever is 'up' the cut-off shaft is flush with the receiver wall opening and the lead cartridge rises higher. Its rim will make contact with the bolt face as it moves forward.


cut-off-block.JPG ( 69 KB | 2 Downloads )
cut-off-open.JPG ( 73 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by JWWFM on Apr 28th, 2015 at 2:57am
Thank you all very much for your quick responses -- this is very helpful information. As soon as I have a chance to work on this I'll let you know how it goes.

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 29th, 2015 at 12:31am
I took a real clear picture today that shows the model 1898 Krag action with the cut-off lever in the 'down' position. The round portion of the cut-off shaft is visible. This blocks the lead cartridge from getting in the path of the bolt.

The second picture shows the flat portion of the cut-off shaft. This allows the lead cartridge and those that follow to pass through to the bolt.
krag_cut-off_down.JPG ( 93 KB | 0 Downloads )
krag_cut-off_up.JPG ( 98 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by kerry49 on Jul 11th, 2018 at 4:13pm
Decided to resurrect this old thread as a good starting point to my problem. I have an1898 action that I would like to put together for a carbine configuration. Unfortunately rounds jam in the magazine when trying to feed them. Even the first one with a full magazine. I took a look as Butlersrangers suggested and it appears that my carrier/follower does not come out as far as shown in the pictures here. I manipulated the carrier with my finger but it stops short of fully extended. It's a hard stop too, will not come out any farther. Any thoughts on this? Thanks.
Kerry

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 11th, 2018 at 6:13pm
1. Dirt, crud, dried grease or debris interfering with parts moving. Some lubrication (fine grease) needed on carrier-follower cam and spring tip.

2. Broken magazine-gate/carrier-follower spring. (Rare)

3. Follower-carrier assembly bent, damaged, or small pin, that holds follower in carrier, is out of position and causing drag.

4. Wrong carrier-follower assembly. (Assemblies changed over evolution of U.S. Krag models).

Other related issues: (Something wrong with magazine cut-off function, side-plate, or receiver feed-path surfaces).
krag_cut-off_up_006.JPG ( 98 KB | 0 Downloads )
Krag-parts2_011.JPG ( 134 KB | 0 Downloads )
Krag-mag-sprg_021.JPG ( 81 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by kerry49 on Jul 11th, 2018 at 6:46pm
BR, thanks for your reply. All the parts were cleaned and oiled, the flat spring is from S&S firearms. The carrier motion is a little sticky like there may be some rubbing. How do I tell if I have the "right" carrier? Sn is in the 185k range. It was not easy getting this contraption assembled, so I am reluctant to do it again, but it looks like it mig.h be necessary. I really appreciate the help.

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 11th, 2018 at 7:30pm
Joe Poyer's book, "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine", has dimensions and descriptions of the changes to carrier-arm/follower (assembly) parts.

I would personally focus on what is causing the assembly to 'drag' or limit its travel, at the end.

Pay especial attention to the 'pivot pin' that the follower hinges on in the carrier-arm. The ends of this pin should be flush and smooth.

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 14th, 2018 at 2:09pm
Hints for disassembly and assembly of U.S. Krag Magazine-Gate, spring, and follower-arm assembly.

1. Leave side-plate off of action until everything else is back together.

2. Use 'padded' (masking or electrical tape on contact surfaces) "C" Clamp to compress and hold Magazine-Gate against spring pressure and align hinge-pin holes.

3. Use a fine File to remove burrs or distortion from the tip of Hinge-Pin, before 'working it' back into place.
(Alignment and smoothness can be tested by trying gate and hinge-pin on receiver, without spring and follower-arm).

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 14th, 2018 at 11:04pm
Note - A gentleman on another forum, (Military Surplus Guns Forum), solved his 'last cartridge feed problem', today, by changing the 'follower-arm/magazine-gate' spring.

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by kerry49 on Jul 15th, 2018 at 12:46am
Thanks again for all the great information. I've been following that Milsurps forum discussion as well. I disassembled the mechanism today along with comparing function to a rifle I have that functions well. The travel of the carrier arm is limited. It rides lower in the magazine than the one in the good rifle, but no interference. I tried the second spare spring I had with the same result. I even tried prying it out farther but it's a dead stop. What other part could limit the range of motion. The follower pin is flush. I've ordered another carrier/follower from granpa's gun parts but it will be awhile before I get it. I think they are on vacation. Still a mystery.

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 15th, 2018 at 4:10am
Photos of your parts might help get a diagnosis.

Maybe your parts are incorrect replacements ( Early U.S., Danish or Norwegian)? Any serial numbers on follower/carrier-arm assembly? A U.S. model 1898 carrier will not have numbers.

Make sure the tip of your spring is properly engaging the cam on the follower/carrier-arm.

Compare your parts with photo from Grandpa's Gun Parts:
cam.jpg ( 54 KB | 0 Downloads )
carrier.jpg ( 65 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by madsenshooter on Jul 15th, 2018 at 2:49pm
The length of the carrier's arbor, the vertical shaft that holds it in, is the give away on different carriers.  Earlier ones were 1.049" long, later ones 1.0".

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by kerry49 on Jul 16th, 2018 at 2:47am
Thanks for the additional information! Attached are some pictures of the carrier and the installed/extended views. I did measure the arbor and I get 1.046 with my dial caliper. The carrier assembly doesn't appear to have any markings. You can see that the follower doesn't extend out as far as the nominal pictures shown in this thread. If I just install the carrier/follower and move it to the extended position it comes out all the way as it should.
IMG_3499__640x480_.jpg ( 127 KB | 1 Download )
IMG_3502__640x480_.jpg ( 183 KB | 0 Downloads )
image3__640x478_.jpg ( 165 KB | 0 Downloads )
image9__640x478_.jpg ( 174 KB | 1 Download )

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 16th, 2018 at 3:27am
It appears to me that there is a burr and a pronounced area of rubbing, (see arrows), on what would be the upper edge of your follower. It is likely that this surface is dragging against an internal surface of the receiver.

(Also, per 'Madsenshooters' measurements, your follower-arm shaft/cam is .046" longer than the later model 1898 type. This possibly is causing the whole assembly to sit high and bind).

BTW - Your magazine cut-off is in the 'block cartridge feed' position.
kerry49.jpg ( 40 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by kerry49 on Jul 16th, 2018 at 1:30pm
Thanks all for the feedback. I'm going to wait for my "new" carrier/follower to get here and see if that fixes the problem. I have 4 rifles in fine working order, so not going to be tearing them apart on this issue. This is a starter/ learning project for me. I suspect that this action that I have is put together from parts by someone, not me. Although I may add my parts here soon :)

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 16th, 2018 at 1:47pm
While you are waiting:

If you 'Dress' the area on the follower, (indicated by 'arrows'), with a fine File and polish with fine paper or a Scotch-brite pad, you may find things start to work properly.

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by kerry49 on Jul 16th, 2018 at 2:48pm
Thanks BR, I'll give it a try. Anyway I need more practice putting it together and taking it apart. Ha!

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by madsenshooter on Jul 16th, 2018 at 3:48pm
Clean it up as suggested first, but if that doesn't do it, I've put the arbor in a vise and bent the follower arm a wee bit to get away from the top of the magazine.  They don't bend easily, but it doesn't take much.  I had a failure to feed on the last round in the last match I shot.  I suspect the follower got caught and wasn't pushing that last round up.  I worked the bolt again and the cartridge popped up when the bolt came all the way back.  My situation is different though, I have a newer follower with the shorter arbor in a 92/96.  The shape of the arm itself is a bit different too, seems to get the shoulder of the cases up higher.

Top is an older follower, out of a 92/96, bottom a newer one with the shorter arbor.  Notice the wave of the arm on the lower one is increased.
differentfollowers_002.JPG ( 118 KB | 2 Downloads )

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by CoRifleman on Mar 15th, 2020 at 6:19pm
At the risk of bringing back a thread from the dead, I wanted to offer insight "for the next guy."  I am working on a 1898 action with some 1896 parts.  My research had led me to think the followers were the same, because vendors (Granpas included) list the follower as being for "all models".  I replaced the side plate, the loading door with 1898 versions.  The original 1896 spring is in good condition, there is plenty of resistance when opening and snapping the door shut.

The 1896 follower/carrier would ride against the bottom of the 1898 magazine slightly, and then would not fully extend.  Even with the side plate removed, the follower would not fully extend.  If the carrier was the only thing installed (door and spring removed), then it was able to extend fully.  The tab on the bottom of the 1898 door that pulls the follower away when the door is opened is what is limiting the follower to extend all the way.  There is, obviously, a corresponding slope on the follower that might be different 1898 to 1896.

I've ordered a 1898 follower and will give it a go.  If it doesn't fix the issue, which I really think it will, then I may try a different door.  But all of the pictures I've found show my door is a standard 1898 door, the spring is in spec, and the hinge pin is ok.  The 1896 follower arbor measured at 1.033.

What I don't know is if the 1896 door would have worked correctly with my 1896 carrier in the 1898 receiver - but my research previously had told me that it would not, because of, well, differences, I guess.

I'll update when the part arrives.

Title: Re: Advice Needed on Magazine Feed Problem
Post by CoRifleman on Mar 21st, 2020 at 5:16pm
Update, follower fixed me right up.

1896 follower did not function correctly in an otherwise 1898 setup.  The dead giveaway was with the side plate removed and magazine closed, the arm did not extend past the exterior edge of the opposite (side plate) side.

Krag Collectors Association Forum Archive » Powered by YaBB 2.6.0!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2024. All Rights Reserved.