I've read elsewhere that the Hornaday 220 RN is a favorite bullet for Krags(for ease of feeding, I suppose) but, what powder is everyone using for best accuracy? I'm completely new to reloading 30/40 but, have reloaded most of my adult life, now 67YO. What modern powder and bullet would match military loads of the early 20th century as far as velocity and accuracy?
Steve

I've got best accuracy with medium burners, 4895, 4064 and other powders in that range.  4350 does well too.  I've played with a lot of different slow burners, but when I get up over 40grs with them, the accuracy isn't there anymore.  I'm loading 168 and 190BTHPs, so there's a jump to the rifling.  My Garand doesn't care about that jump, why should my Krag?  Actually, if you keep rounds below magazine length, even the 220RN has considerable jump.

I load my rounds with the Hornady 220 RN using 40.0 grains of IMR 4350 and a CCI 250 Magnum primer.  This is about as close as you can get to the ballistics of the original .30 US Army round that our Krags were designed for.  This is what I'll be shooting at the Nationals this year in three weeks.

That said, there are a plethora of different loads and bullets which work well in Krags.  I know a guy who shoots a 150 GR RN bullet in his and regularly shoots 296+ all day long in CMP matches (300 is a perfect score, so you can imagine how accurate he is).  Not all Krags love the same loads, so once you find what works for you in your Krag, stick with it!

I load the 220 grain Hornadys with 42.5 grains of IMR 4350.

GAB!!! That 42.5 grain load will crack your bolt lug!

Amen to that!  41 grains of 4350 is about as hot as you want to go in a Krag, and even that is pushing it.  40.0 is the normal loading, and you should try to stick right around there!

Sierra manual goes a bit higher. Test gun identified as Krag, 22" barrel.

30-40 Krag

.308 220 gr. RN
Cartridge OAL: 3.000"

Velocity------1800     1900     2000     2100            
IMR-4350      38.2      40.2      42.3      44.4      

Accuracy Load: IMR-4350/42.3 grs.; 2000 fps/1954 ft.lbs.
Hunting Load: IMR-4350/44.4 grs.; 2100 fps/2154 ft.lbs.

Conservative loads certainly offer their advantages, especially for target shooting, but if Sierra's data can be trusted there may be little cause for alarm at 42.5 grains

I tried the 42.5 grain load and cracked the lug on my 1896 bolt somewhere during two 5-shot strings.  That is the level of velocity & pressure that caused the highest velocity military ammunition to be withdrawn from service.

Any Sierra 220 gr. users here? Has anyone seen an advantage in Sierra's?
Steve

Anymore, we use what we can get.

I've used both the Hornady and the Sierra 220 gr bullets.  I've been using the Sierras in local matches this year, but I'm bringing the Hornady to Camp Perry as I think my Krag is slightly more accurate with them.  Personally, I prefer the Hornady as the bullet profile is more of a RN shape, where as the Sierra is more tapered with a smaller nose... but as reincarnated stated, we use what we can get.  Hornady considers the 220 RN a seasonal bullet these days, so they only run them occasionally.  I stock up when I can find them.  Right now, they seem to be available (Cabelas had several boxes of 100 in stock this weekend). 

reincarnated wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 12:10am:

GAB!!! That 42.5 grain load will crack your bolt lug!

Maybe, maybe not.  I think the fit of the locking lug into the recess has a bit to do with cracking bolts too.  Some only bear on one edge, like one I took out of a 13000 serial rifle that had a cracked receiver.  On the other hand, I've shot some loads out of my parkerized 92/96 that had to be near proof levels.  The lug fully bears on it, as does the guide rib.  Was it you who said your chamber was out of alignment?  Maybe it was someone on another forum.  That could have some effect on whether or not a lug cracks too.

On to other things, I have decided on my Camp Perry load.  29.5gr of SPP210, a Swiss made powder that burns about 4198 speed.  The 168gr Nosler match bullet is only going around 2250fps.  I shot a lot of loads before deciding on this one.   None of the loads with 40gr or more powder come close to this one accuracy-wise.  I think that has something to do with muzzle pressure.  I shot five yesterday, 3Xs within an inch, one 10, one 9 that I'll take the blame for.  About a 1.75" group with the just outside the 10 ring 9.  I was using a 6 oclock hold at 100yds, 3.3" high at 100 should be right on with a center hold at 200.  Which is right where the 1902 sight is set!  I'm ready as I'm going to get.

madsenshooter, muzzle pressure? Also, I've never heard of you SS210 powder? Where do you buy this stuff, anyway?
Steve

Muzzle pressure, the pressure the gases behind the bullet have at bullet exit.  With faster burning powders in lower doses the powder has generated all the gas it's going to long before the bullet gets to the muzzle.  So what gas has been generated is constantly expanding with pressure getting lower behind the bullet.  The more powder you use, the more gas you evolve, more = higher pressure at bullet exit with slower powders, if equal chamber pressure loads are used.  More gas = more blast at the muzzle.  This is my simple explanation, maybe parashooter could illustrate a few loads for us.

The SPP210 was a surplus powder once offered by Wideners.  SPP = Swiss Precision Powder.  After digging around I think it was a lot of Vectan Tu2000.  Some Vectan powders are being imported, can't say if it includes Tu2000.  Ask your local supplier, he'll probably get a smile on his face like the owner of the junkyard did when I asked about an ECU unit for my 89 Volvo.  No words needed said.

By the way, my load was super at 100yds, easily holding the 10 ring with 3/5 in the X, but it was not good at 200.  I think because of transitioning below Mach 2.  Shot dispersal was pretty wide.

Yes so I gathered. Never heard that used before. Port, pressure chamber pressure etc. but, never muzzle pressure?
Steve

While I have fired the 42.5 grain IMR 4350 loads a number of times, I think I will pull the remaining loads and start over. I do not want to damage my old Krag, nor risk personal injury.

In using any 220 gr. Round Nose, does anyone have feedback on bullet expansion in game hunting ?
I've read elsewhere that most 220 gr. need 30-06 vel. to expand well on game.
Thanks

Luke wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

In using any 220 gr. Round Nose, does anyone have feedback on bullet expansion in game hunting ? I've read elsewhere that most 220 gr. need 30-06 vel. to expand well on game. Thanks

I whole heartedly disagree.  Hunters have been taking record game with Krags using standard velocities and 220 grain RN bullets for almost a hundred years!  Remember, with a heavy bullet like the 220 gr RN, the bullet has enough mass to penetrate and expand well at lower velocities.  Just think about the damage the 500 grain mini-ball caused at 1200 FPS out of a civil war musket... astonishing!!!  Nope, the 220 grain RN should serve you quite well at standard Krag pressures and velocities!

Luke wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

In using any 220 gr. Round Nose, does anyone have feedback on bullet expansion in game hunting ? I've read elsewhere that most 220 gr. need 30-06 vel. to expand well on game. Thanks

Welcome to the forum!

Of course, Shot placement is everything.  A mushroomed bullet shot in a non-fatal wound results in an animal that runs off and laughs at you.


Good reading:

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Thank You Gentlemen for your feedback.
I've always preferred 220gr. RN in my 30-06, and I think the 30-40 will do as well, but at much closer range.
My hangout is Admiralty Island.

Considering the size of the critters one might run into there, I'd carry mine loaded with 220s also.  Most reliable feeding, if by chance you needed another one or two.

reincarnated wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 12:10am:

GAB!!! That 42.5 grain load will crack your bolt lug!

I'm glad I decided to read some of these posts regarding 30-40 reloads.  I loaded some Hornady 220 rn with 43gr IMR4350 last night.  Sounds like I should pull those and reload with 40gr.  I'm a total amateur at reloading.  I was using the Lyman 50th edition as a guide.  They list 40gr as a start load and 45gr as max.  I was curious because the Hornady guide listed for most powders max loads under the start load Lyman listed.  Really confusing for me!  I didn't look at the Hornady until I was finished. (Not the best time to check other reference material)

I would look at the Lyman guide with care.  Some loads listed are great, and some border on dangerous.  I recall the case of someone who destroyed a rifle recently and cited the load from the Lyman manual.  Upon checking, they Lyman 49th did list the load he used, and further checking of Hornady and Sierra data placed his load at beyond dangerous levels.  In short, either the Lyman manual had a serious typo, or the data was just flat bad!  The Hornady 9th and 10th editions are my bible!

FWIW, a good load for the Krag using 220 gr bullets and 4350 is right at 40.0 grains.  There really is no reason to go any higher!

I will go with 40 gr.  I'm going to note in my Lyman guide to not use the data for 30-40 Krag.  What a bad deal!  I loaded about 50 rounds with several loads of IMR 4064, 4895, and 4350.  I used the Lyman guide so I probably over loaded all of them.  Next purchase, bullet puller for the press.  I'm not going to use a kinetic bullet puller for all of those! 

Thank you for your advice!  I'll be sure to reference the Hornady manual going forward.

Please note this is a question!
Could it be the what would be a dangerous load in the Lyman manual is actually for a strong rifle like a #3 Ruger? If so there should be a note saying not to use the load in a Krag.

When I used to load for my son's 45/70, most manuals had 3 levels of loading, one for trap door Spingfields, one for lever actions and one for strong bolt actions. My sons 45/70 is a small framed NEF single shot so NEF said we could use the lever action loads.
Loading for a 45 colt is similar, old revolvers with Ruger and Freedom Arms in a different class.

Good point Fred.  I got one of those little One Book/One Caliber manuals for the 30-40.  It has Lyman data that goes up to 45gr of IMR4350 with the 220.  However, in the introduction, it states that the loads are for use in the Ruger single shot only!

There is also two sets of Hodgdon data.  For the Krag with a 220gr and H4350 it goes up to 42gr.  Then there's a section titled 30-40 Heavy Loads for Modern Rifles which tops out at 45gr for the same bullet/powder.

The Lyman 50th Edition manual talks about how the MAP (max average pressure) of 40,000 CUP is what SAAMI has established for this cartridge.  It gives the history of the cartridge and discusses the Krag as an elderly military rifle, but it never gives any warning to not use these loads in the Krag.  It mentions you may encounter the 30-40 in the Winchester Model 1885, Model 95, and the Ruger Number 3. 

Homework and prudence are definitely key!  We all know what happened when the military tried to squeeze an extra couple thousand FPS out of the Krag!  Much better to be safe than sorry... and 1950 - 2000 FPS is plenty fast enough to take game and score tens with a Krag shooting a 220 grain bullet! 

My Lyman 49th shows considerably higher loads than I would ever be comfortable with for 30-40, and has no mention of whether it's for a Win 95, Ruger #1 or #3, or the High-Wall.  Now I have consulted the Lyman with regards to loads for cast, but I also take them with a grain of salt, and bounce the data against other sources!

I had the Krag out this past weekend with my hand loads made with your formula of 40gr IMR4350 with a 220gr Hornady RN bullet.  They worked great!  Shot point of aim and I was ringing the 8"x18" steel plate at 300 yards!

Sounds like you found your magic load!  Now... load up 40 or so rounds, and prepare to muster at Camp Perry for the Roosevelt Match soldier!!!  ;D

Paul: It looks like the 'Team Bandanas' came in.

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I'm in love!  I've just found my future ex-wife!

"Rosie the Gun Stocker".

psteinmayer wrote on Apr 13^th, 2017 at 11:20am:

Sounds like you found your magic load!  Now... load up 40 or so rounds, and prepare to muster at Camp Perry for the Roosevelt Match soldier!!!  ;D

Hopefully next year I can make it out there!  I'd love to meet you guys and get more involved.  I keep looking for local shoots and have yet to find any.  Barren Kansas  ;D

FYI, Springfield Armory (the real one, the museum now) sells those "WoW" bandanas. My wife and I bought a dozen and have given some out to motorcycling friends.

After a hiatus, I've gotten back into reloading for rifle, and filled up my small collection of empty Krag brass. The Hornady 220 gn over 40 gns of 4350 sounds like the load to start with ,so hopefully my 1898 will like them.  ;D

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Ok.... where can I get those AWESOME boxes???  I say Bully too!!!

I make the labels for all my reloading, and they are sized to fit these MTM 20 round boxes (in the "smoke" color):

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I print the load data on the back side, and a date code on the end flaps. It needs to be printed on 11x17 paper to be complete.

This is what it looks like "in the flat' before I trim it out of the sheet:
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Then, I shrink tube my reloads, so that the slip top boxes don't fall open:    (You need to Login


I've attached  a .pdf for the 30-40 ones with the date removed and that should print OK if you want to use it, and I'll attach the word document template I use to make the others in the next post.

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The Word document has worked pretty well with editing for other calibers:

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For the 30-40 label, I downloaded a .ttf font called Mesquite, and the rest of the label is Nyala font.

It's a bit tricky to do the upside down parts of the label, I have to "snip" the image/text from the bottom (right side up) part of the label, and save it as a .jpg, then invert it in an image editing software, then paste the image in. It's a workaround; but it does the trick. The "District 13" and the Flaming Bomb is a gag I put together in a .jpg, and use across my reloads.

I have a different Word template for MTM Pistol boxes as well, but generally not as colorful.

In the photo you can see the evolution of the label, originally I didn't have the end flap printed with caliber/date info:

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Pretty Awesome!!!  You should bring some of those to the Roosevelt Match to show off!  I went ahead and printed off a couple.  Thanks so much for that.

JimW,

Very trick set up with the ammo boxes!  Could you give me a link to the shrink wrap?

The same stuff works on the rifle and pistol boxes:

Product MP-615VST 6" x 1500' PVC Shrink Tubing, 100 ga.

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A short video:

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There are comments in this thread about SAAMI pressures and the suitability of the pressure tested loads from Lyman. I think looking at some of the earliest data on the Krag might be helpful.

In 1894, the Ordnance department noted that Frankford Arsenal was ramping up production of the ammunition for the new .30 cartridge. The load was 43 gn of powder under a 220 gn RN bullet, giving the desired 2000 fps at an indicated pressure of 33,000 psi. Appendix 9 to the report notes that powders being evaluated could produce the needed speed at only 29,000 psi. (Others under test were higher pressure.)

Why, then, is the SAAMI spec 40,000 psi? SAAMI specs sometimes reflect the highest loads offered by the makers when the cartridge spec is created. The classic example is the .45-70, rated at 28,000 psi but loaded to under 20,000 psi. Another example is the .25-20 which is rated at 28,000 psi because there once were factory smokeless loads at that pressure, a pressure well beyond the 18,000 or so the original BP cartridges might make. There are other such examples in the standards.

The 40,000 psi SAAMI rating likely reflects the 180 gn sporting loads soon developed for the 1895 and 1885 Winchester rifles, which had no trouble digesting this. Further, early sporting smokeless powders were double base and prone to pressure rise with temperature, such as from strings of shots on a warm day, and this likely led to a little more pressure being dialed in to the spec.

The 220 @ 2000 military loads for the Krag rifle did not, as far as I can tell, ever develop the SAAMI number. When the army tried to raise performance (which required more pressure), it soon had to back off to the original speed.

(First posts must be short, so I'll continue in a second post.)

The good folks at Lyman provide the only current, pressure tested data. Their data indicates modern IMR powders will make the original specs at about 32,000 psi indicated, the same pressure Whelen reported for the new IMR powders of his day. Both 4895 and 4064 look to be the best choices. I see no reason to use any more pressure. I shoot .30 Krag from a rolling block, and I never load up, due to the relative weakness of the action. I would never shoot factory ammo in this rifle. I recommend Krag shooters stick to the performance of the starting loads given by Lyman.

Finally, a note on pressures. All the early data would have been recorded using some apparatus to deform a piece of metal. At SAAMI, the modern standard for this is "CUP" which simply means "psi as indicated by a copper crusher, a method known to be inaccurate." I'm sure the early pressure readings are just as inaccurate as the modern crusher readings, but it's all we have. The available numbers suggest the errors aren't too bad at army Krag pressures.

    Karl

FWIW, IMR-4350 is just about as close as you can get to the original Laflin & Rand .30 Smokeless Powder that Frankford used in the original .30 USA ammo.  A charge of 40.0 grains of IMR-4350 under a 220 gr RN bullet just about covers it as far as duplicating the original load.  The burn rate of 4895 and 4064, while adequate for the 220 gr bullet, is fast enough that it doesn't take full advantage of the length of the Krag barrel at 30 inches.

Frankford in 1894 reported they were using Peyton powder in their first productions runs. The Wikipedia article on the California Powder Works says this stuff was corrosive and the army switched to W.A. powder to load Krag ammo, in 1896. Their Laflin & Rand article says that company was involved with the production of W.A. (Whelen's WW-I era book says W.A. was long preferred but was erosive. He was a big fan of the early IMR powders.)

The 4350 has the advantage of getting the charge weight correct while giving the proper speed at the modest pressures. Whether using 4064 or 4895 will affect the impact point with the issue sights, I can't say. Frankford was testing powders with charge weights from the low 30s to at least 43.

I suspect 4350 isn't burning fully even in a 30" barrel. Although my barrel is that length, I've never tried it. My old copy of QuickLoad says about 9% will be unburnt at 2000 fps, but it seems to be rather off with its 4350 estimations. In comparison, it says 4895 will leave about 2%, which is why it might give the same speed for nearly the same peak pressure. QL does reckon you get the job done with about 10% less powder but at a little more pressure, just as Lyman found in their tests.

While 4895 gets the job done for less money, my rolling block doesn't have army sights to regulate to. However, from Lyman's data, it looks like I would drop 1000 psi on my breech with it, so I'll have to give it a try some day, when I finally get serious with the 220 gn loads (mostly I've shot 180s).

Okay, I get to eat a little crow today. I looked over the 1895 report from Ordnance which says they are looking at various powders and are willing to accept lots of powder making 38,000 normal and 45,000 when hot. SAAMI's 40,000 for the .30 Krag is, then, reasonable. Regardless, my rolling block won't see over 33,000; there is no back-up locking lug on this rifle.

For what it's worth, Ordnance reports they used only Peyton powder through June of '95, but they had on order Leonard and DuPont powders. Tests were showing the NG content of Leonard was eroding barrels; Peyton was mostly NC and causing no problems. That Peyton was a slow powder is indicated by the complaints of unburned residue filling the locking lug's recess and causing jams.

A question: How "dirty" is 4350 when used in a .30-40-220? My .30-37-180 loads of 4895 are fairly clean.

Interesting was the note they were preparing to test 120 gn .22 caliber ammunition.

The report for Frankford through mid-1898 says they are still using as much Peyton as any other powder for the Krag. DuPont contracts are equally large, and WA from L&R is also being loaded but not in the quantities of Peyton and DuPont. Mean pressures with the latest lots of Peyton are 35,000 and 38,000 maximum. Various tests indicate it is of different composition than earlier lots. They report the granules are soft enough to crush with your fingernails.

The DuPont powder being employed makes higher pressures for 2000 fps, with means near 38,000. (More crow for me.) WA was more like 36,000.

The Wikipedia says the CPW plant was destroyed in an explosion in 1898, so this was likely the last year Frankford will include a report on Peyton. Given the previous erosion reports on the DuPont powder, I suspect 1899 was the year WA became the predominant powder in the .30 Krag, but I don't have the report for that year.

I think 4350 burns slightly dirtier than 4895 or 4064, but it's really not that bad.  I really clean no harder than I do with my 1903A3, and I use 4895 in that (it does clean up a little easier than my Krag... but not so much as I really worry about it).  I do use a CCI 250 (magnum) primer, which is a little hotter, allowing for a more complete burn than if I was using standard primers.  I'm most likely going to switch to a CCI #34 which is a mil-spec primer (same heat and flame as a 250, but with a thicker cup). 

Now back when I loaded 165 and 180 gr bullets for the Krags, I used 4064 exclusively.  I found that my rifles prefer the 220 gr RN/IMR 4350 load a little better.  I also apply a light crimp with a LEE Factory Crimp Die.  I started crimping back when I used the lighter bullets because if I didn't, then the bullets would telescope during chambering from the magazine, causing the case to become jammed partially in the chamber.  Not a problem with RN bullets.  The feel is much smoother, but I still crimp for consistency. 

I finally "worked up" my 220 gn load. From Lyman's data, previous chronograph readings for my 180 gn load, and QuickLoad pressure and fps estimates (which are inaccurate at these pressures, but help gauge barrel length changes), I started at 35.0 gn of 4895 (with Remington 9.5 primers) and got fps readings both sides of the desired 2000 fps in my 30" barrel. Thus ends my "working up," until I run out of this bottle of 4895. Pressures should be 31000 to 32000, which makes me feel better--it is just a rolling block. I wouldn't call it a squeaky clean burn, but it's clean enough.

I found interesting the 220 is a relatively mild recoiling load. My butt stock is done in an older style, with the end grain mildly checkered and no plate or pad. My boney teenager was whimpering about the recoil, but I found it quite tolerable. My previous 180 gn load is a bit sharper in recoil, probably because higher speeds mean a shorter thus more abrupt recoil. Compared to the 180, the 220 is in the direction of shove and away from sharp, not that either load is a prime example of shove or sharp.

My rifle is only 6-3/4 lb, and original fps is all I'll care for. It's a grand old cartridge. I was a bit worried to see Remington and Winchester brass supplies dry up, but others have stepped in to the market (at a higher price). I think it's a keeper.

Next up: A reduced recoil 125 gn load for my boney teenager.

   Karl

Buy your 'stick boy' a (USMC type) cloth shooting jacket, with sewn in shoulder and elbow pads. He will become a better & happier shooter, if he is not being pounded. In cool weather, he can wear a sweatshirt under it for warmth and added padding.

i use a 165gr ranch dog(about 173gr) and 25.5gr of h4198, goes around 1800fps. they are a deer's worst nitemare.

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the right and the left boolits are 165gr rd
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