I walked in one of my local shops and they had decided to sell some pieces out of a display. One of the pieces I picked was an already opened box of Winchester 30 Army. Ammo is in fantastic shape. I paid $60 for it and thought that's was pretty decent.

---

Nice display item!

Ok... I have a couple questions for the more astute collectors:

1. Shouldn't the bullets be cupro nickel and not copper jacketed?
2. Shouldn't the primers be brass/copper and slightly rounded?

Not trying to rain on your parade Jeremy... but they look to me like they've been reloaded using modern primers (possibly CCI) and Hornady 220 gr FMJ bullets (no longer made, but still available up until 5 years or so ago).  I could be wrong about this (and frequently am)... but it's just my gut feeling.

Am not 100% sure, Paul, but I believe you may be correct. Didn't think about the primers when first viewing the pics, but my first (and instantaneous) reaction to the bullets was "Huhh??"

I wasn't sure overall so I figured I'd post up some photos and see what others thought. The pictures I've seen from other previous auctions of this or the red label Winchester showed both colors of primers but they both were definitely cupped primers and not flat. I've also seen photos of the bullet itself being both Cupro Nickel and Copper jacketed so I really wasn't sure. The box and the brass with that headstamp is cool and worth at least half what I paid for it to me so I figured I'd take the gamble on it. The headstamp on the brass was unique as I have never seen it just marked WRA 30. I've almost always seen it marked WRA Co.

My box states "Staynless" and that's why I didn't initially question the primers because the early Winchester "Staynless" primers were silver in color. From further research the 30 on the headstamp is not a caliber as I thought but year of manufacture. The only other photo I could find of just a WRA headstamp without the Co. was WRA 31 220 gr full patch with a copper jacket and "Staynless" silver primer made in 1931. The top label of my box confirms this on the bottom right where it reads 8-30 (August 1930).

I am not a 'Cartridge Collector', but, this is all quite interesting. Thanks for Sharing.

Ditto, though I have a bunch of (mostly) sealed boxes of .50-70 and .45-70 to go with my guns. Never really acquired much for the Krag, and, it is all Frankford Arsenal stuff, in any event. The box under discussion is commercial, and I'm not sure that the rounds shown are those that it originally contained. Not sure they aren't, either - but someone will ultimately tell us, I'm certain.

I have two boxes of Krag ammo... a Frankford 04 box and a WRA 07 box.  Both have cupro bullets and bronze cupped primers.  Both also have some split/cracked cases.  I believe this is because of the age, coupled with incorrect (before they came to me) storage.  I have never fired one, although about ten years ago, I did disassemble a round (Frankford 04) that was not part of my boxes, and loaded the powder and bullet in a modern Remington case and fired that, which fired just fine. 

I dug out WRACo Vol 1, thinking to find the answer, but found no reference, except that Winchester-made bullets were marked with a small "w" until 1932.  HWS Vol 1 reports that "Navy contracts for Cal .30 ball ammunition continued through the 1920s and into the early 1930s. An illustration shows a WRA 31 headstamp.   Later in the same long paragraph, the writer reported that some of the contract ammunition was released to civilian shooters via the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice.  The last sentence in the paragraph reads "A late ball round, headstamped W.R.A. 30, has been examined with a nickle-alloy or monel metal primer cup - possibly for subcaliber use." 

In December 1961, I was assigned to inventory ammunition in storage at the Naval Ammunition Depot at Lualualei, Oahu.  I was amazed to find .30-40 cartridges in service.  They were Model 1925s, loaded with 172 grain M1 ball bullets.  The boxes were marked for subcaliber use and had Frankford Arsenal labels.  The cases were headstamped FA and dated from the late 1920s.

After all that, I don't think the cases are original to the box.  The box would have contained cases headstamped "WRACo".  After all that, the box and cartridges are still an item of interest.

FWIW - 'Reincarnated's' post makes mention of ammo, (Ball Round), with W.R.A. 30 head-stamp and nickel alloy primer cup.

Jeremy has indicated the "30" is likely a year date and his box is dated 8-30. (Maybe everything is correct).

Western Cartridge Company introduced "Lubaloy" copper alloy jackets in the 1920s. A December, 1929, American Rifleman add makes mention of Lubaloy Palma ammo.

I don't have any old .30-40 commercial ammo, but, here's an empty 'Western' box (non-corrosive primers) and probably an earlier box that touts 'non-fouling' Lubaloy bullet.

---

Where was the W located on the projectile? I'm assuming it would be on the base and would be willing to pull one down for the sake of history and science! :) Scouring through other forums, cartridges of the world volumes, and auctions the "8-30" on the bottom right of the top label definitely indicates month and year of manufacture. Just as reincarnated stated I was expecting a headstamp bearing WRA Co. and was surprised to just see WRA. The 30 on the cartridge from all of my research also is a year of manufacture so the box and cases are at least from the same year but who knows if they actually belong together. I would certainly love to know. Pulling a bullet and posting pics of the bullet and powder may help?

FWIW:
Various references I have read today confirm the use of "W.R.A. 30" and "W.R.A. 31" as a Winchester cartridge head-stamp in 1930 and 1931.

Winchester introduced "Staynless" primers around 1929. They superseded the "NF" (non-fulminate) primer, "which was somewhat copper in color", according to one collecting source. I assume the 'Staynless primer' may have been silver in color (?).

In the 1920s, Winchester began using a Lubaloy (copper) plating on lead bullets, (while Western Cartridge Co. was also using that term on copper jacketed bullets).

I don't know if Winchester had adopted copper jacketed bullets by 1930.

The Western Cartridge Company purchased a bankrupt Winchester R. A. Company on 12-22-1931.

It would be real interesting to see the base of one of Jeremy's bullets to see if it is marked with a "W".

The "w" is not on the base of the pre-1932 Winchester bullets.  It is stamped on the side in a very small font.  Must have done wonders for accuracy.  If there is a cannelure, the letter is forward of the cannelure.

Yeah I'm sure that really helped out in the accuracy department! ;) The projectile does have a cannelure and I will investigate further when I get home from work. If it is small font and I can capture it on camera visibly I will do my best to put up the photo for all to see.

I went back to WRACo Vol 1 again.  There are line drawings of the 220 grain FMJ bullet seated in a Krag case.  The drawing shows the crimp in the bullet cannelure and the tiny "w" visible just above the cannelure.  The round nose of the bullet does not, to my elderly eyes, quite match the bullet in the photo and I also have very minor doubts about the copper-colored bullet.  I looked at WRACo loaded cartridges in my collection (other calibers) and the "w" is visible.

All the Winchester labels came from the Winchester art department.  There is a product number on each.  My understanding is that the "8-30" on the label is a date showing when that particular label was approved for use by the Winchester bureaucracy.  We can infer that the box went into the Winchester product distribution system after that date.  It may or may not tell us much about the age of the contents.

W R A (no dots) and a 2-digit year code was specified as the headstamp for Winchester cases made for a government contract.  I think it is possible that the WRA 30 cases loaded for a late Navy contract would go into a box like that, especially since Frankford Arsenal was loading Subcaliber cases at the same time.  FA used the M-1 bullets for the .30-06 because they had used up all the Krag and .30-03 bullets in stock and would make no more.

Those boxes of Western Cartridge Company 180 grain boat-tailed bullets are very interesting.  They are from the post WW1 to pre-WW2 period when long range military style shooting was in vogue.  WRACo loaded the same sort of load, but their labels indicate that the loaded cartridge is too long for a Krag magazine and is intended to be single-loaded.  I expect that there were rifles purpose-built, and maybe not Krags, for that cartridge.

After Western bought Winchester in December, 1931, did they still produce ammo under the Winchester name?

I saw a picture of a Box of the special .30-06 ('single load only') ammo with copper jacketed bullets. I assumed it was simply too long to feed through the Model 54 Winchester's magazine and was intended for long range 'slow fire'.

IIRC - The model 54 was manufactured from 1925 to 1930.

---

There is no "w" visible on any of the 20 cartridges that I can find. Their is consistent tarnishing on both the cases and projectiles. If these are in fact reloads as Paul suggested they were well done, as everything is very uniform, and quite long ago. That is very interesting information about the headstamp! I appreciate you spending the time and effort looking it up! The knowledge and kindness on this forum is absolutely amazing. I'm a student of history and love to revel in its wisdom. I'm only 30 years old (started collecting pretty young lol) and am really trying to keep the traditions of these rifles alive. If these things could only talk and tell us where they've been :)

This has all been so very interesting... and forces us to research, which only serves to educate us further!  I Love it!!!

As for the cartridges, I concede that they may be original, but I'm still skeptical based on the lack of a "W" on the bullet... and those flat primers.  Some US military rounds even as recent as the 1960s still had the cupped-shaped primers (I have some HXP M2 Ball dated 1962 with rounded/cupped primers).  I just don't know when flat primers started appearing.  Other than that, they sure do look old, so if they are reloads, they were loaded a long time ago...

Time for more research!

I've opened WRACo Vol 1 again.  There were .30-03 military (or at least FMJ) loads without the "w" because the illustration shows a sample with & without.  There was also (missed it before) a separate section on .30 U.S.G. loads, yet another name for the Krag cartridge.  The illustration shows a military cartridge without the "w" but with a CN (cupro-nickle) notation in the description.

The .30 U.S.G. entry notes that Navy contracts for W.R.A.Co. 29 and W.R.A. (with dots) 32 headstamps were for blank cartridges with a cannelure at the neck to hold a tan card wad.

The .30 Army entry indicates that FP (full patch) bullets were loaded and that some of the loads were GM (gilding metal) and that some did not have a "w" and were loaded with flat brass primer.

They manufactured components in lots or batches, with enough for whatever contract they were filling and then had leftovers.  The WRACo type headstamps appeared until the mid-1960s, depending on what was in the component bins.

Jeremy- if most of them could talk, they would tell you that it is pretty boring being in the closet, attic or basement for years.

Boxes of Winchester .30-40 Krag and many other calibers (including .220 Swift) are found with labels that say "Loaded in France".  These date from the 1920s and 1930s.

The Model 54 Winchester was made (a few thousand) in .30 WCF (.30-30).  These were often re-chambered for .30-40 Krag and sometimes for things like the Ackley Improved Krag. I have an original in .30-30 and have given thought to a .30-40 conversion.

reincarnated wrote on May 27^th, 2016 at 3:31pm:

Jeremy- if most of them could talk, they would tell you that it is pretty boring being in the closet, attic or basement for years.

Haha, interesting analysis. I've never really thought of it that way. Quite true though. I guess I should have said a "time lapse" of the history of each of these rifles and different pieces of militaria to cut down on some of the more boring parts :)

They look righteous to me. God only knows how many sealed boxful's of that stuff I blasted away as a kid in the late 60's. You could pick up 90's to 30's vintage .30-40 FMJ ammo at shows all day long for $2-3/box. One of the main reasons I got into bullet casting and reloading was I got tired of getting beat up shooting that stuff in my Krag carbine. That late (30's) vintage stuff was my favorite because I didn't have to be so fastidious in cleaning the bore afterward.

An auction on Gunbroker came up with the exact same label as my ammunition. The auction number is 564033933 on gunbroker. The photos seem to confirm that my ammo is original and unmodified as the cartridges look identical. Flat "silver colored" primers and a copper jacket with consistent tarnish on the cases like mine. Anyone gets a chance to look at it I would appreciate your thoughts. Cheers.

Your cartridges may be correct factory loads. I have a few boxes of the same Winchester ammo. One full but unsealed box holds copper full patch bullets and unplated (copper colored) domed primers. Another Winchester box of the same vintage, but full of old style blanks with paper bullets had flat nickeled primers. The blanks labeling was in red ink to set them apart from the regular ammo label printed in black. Further, it's my understanding that both domed and flat primers coexisted for a while and reloading tools of the era could be had with either cupped or flat primer seating rams.
Re: W marked bullets. I've never seen Winchester bullets marked with a stamped "W" but have observed "W" marked primers.