Hi guys,

I have a carbine with a rifle barrel cut down. Some of you helped me identify what I had. Thanks

I am now trying to reload for it. The problem I feel is the shoulder. I have some reloads for this carbine from the guy I got it from and they will not load. I have a factory round that loads just fine. I resized some old (60s- 70s ) brass both Win and Rem (not sure what rifle they were shot from). Casing length in spec, but the bolt will not close. the start of the shoulder should be .500s, these are 700s. I have RCBS FL dies, so I am not sure what the deal is?
Do I need to aneal the brass to get the shoulder moved back?

I am also going to cast the chamber for GP.

Thanks
Martin

Are we talking in terms of brass or loaded rounds?

Ok, so my first question is did you load any of these?  It sounds like they are not loaded for 30-40 if the shoulder is not correct.  If these are rounds that were loaded by someone else, then I would break them down and resize the cases.  (I'm just not that trusting when it's my life on the line, and I KNOW what I am putting into a case... but I never trust ammo from someone I don't really know).

If your talking in terms of cases that you sized and still won't chamber because of the shoulder, then you might not have your sizing die set up correctly.  It's not unheard of... but it may explain the shoulder being located too far forward.

Annealing the case necks is always a good idea to save on case neck wear and tear over several reloadings.  Also, after you've sized, loaded and fired your rounds, you should neck-size only as the case is now fire-formed to the chamber. 

If possible, post a couple pictures showing one next to a factory round.

There is both I first noticed this when I went to test the fit some 220 grain rounds that my friend  reloaded. I then went on to try a used casing and it didn't fit. I've then resized and made sure that the length of the casing was alright and it still doesn't fit with the shoulder. I put sharpie around the shoulder and was able to see that it was rubbing right at the beginning of the shoulder. Since the die was not fully forming the cartridge, I pulled the stem so I can fully seat into it without any obstruction. The start of the shoulder was still the same.

I'm confused - you say the guy who sold you the gun also sold you some reloads for it? What does HE say about why they will not chamber? Any chance of the cases having been - at some point - run through .303 British dies, or fireformed in some wildcat? Offbeat guesses to be sure, but your story is puzzling.

There was 20 rounds that came with the carbine. He reload them long ago it's a family friend. I don't think he ever got a chance to shoot the carbine unless it was factory rounds. Factory rounds will load in the carbine.

The other empty casings that I have we're given to me from a friend that's passed away. I am not sure what they were shot in, but I think it had a loose chamber.

The dies have are full length dies. I have resize the casings but they still do not chamber. These are without bullets that I am trying to chamber. Bolt moves down 1/4" for lock up and then stops.

Can you screw the sizing die down any further into your press, or are you already (almost) touching the shell holder? I assume that - if you have a modern press that you are using a button shell-holder (my old Pacific Jr. has a dedicated shell-holder machined into the ram itself) so is there any chance it is for another caliber? Any chance your dies are mismarked? Do you know anyone else who loads for Krag with whom you can compare dies? In other words, can you shove your wrongly sized cases into another die, or do they hang up as with your rifle?

Sounds like you might have something in your chamber.  Or you might have some cases that were shot in a 30-40 improved chamber.  Let me see if I got it straight.  Factory rounds will chamber, sized down cases will not.  If they won't go, they have to be bigger than they're supposed to be.  But unless the die is cut long, or you're not running them all the way into the die, full length sizing should take of it.  If the cases are already bigger than they should be, they may have been fired in a 30-40 improved chamber.  Even if so, full length sizing should fix it, but it would require a bit more force than usual, and perhaps some sizing die wax.  This is a hard one without some hands on checking of things!  Pic of a case that will chamber beside one that won't may be of help.

I have ran into a few rifles that were tightly chambered.  Not done by the Armory, but by someone else over the years.  Rental of a chamber reamer will fix that.  One that was short I could chamber a round, but it was pushing the shoulder back on an already full length sized case.  My reamer took care of that and it's now the same length as the rest of my rifles.  Oh, and make sure your FL die is not marked 30-40AI, the AI standing for Ackley Improved.

The usual source of such problems is insufficient sizing resulting from a failure to compensate for press flex under load. Examine die/shellholder gap when sizing a case. If gap is present, die can be adjusted farther down.

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If gap under load is eliminated and cases still will not chamber, upper surface of shellholder can be stoned or sanded thinner to allow case to enter die farther.

Before trying any of this, measure rim thickness of problem cases. If it's greater than .064" (and your rifle has good, tight headspace) the problem may not be at the shoulder.

If the factory rounds chamber and you are confident that everything is safe (remove bolt and look through the chamber), try firing a single round (or maybe 2 or 3) and compare the cases.  There were many who "improved" the Krag case over the years, not just Ackley.

Look carefully at the markings on your FL die.  Might it be a Neck Sizing die?  Make sure you have the right shell holder.  Make some careful measurements of the fired & resized cases.

If you are like me and have one of those ancient presses (Pacific or Herters) that Mr. Hosmer described, RCBS sells an adapter or replacement kit ($12.50, IIRC) that brings it up to date, +/-.

The idea of an improved chamber has been mentioned. Could the dies been improved and not marked? If so you will be chasing your tail till you get correct dies.

Also on my 35 caliber sporter I had a similar problem mine turned out to to be an undersize chamber mostly near the rim. Factory cases could just barely chamber but cases that had been correctly resized would not. Chances of having an undersized original chamber are remote. Mine was cut with a defective reamer that the reamer manufacturer replaced.

I think I found the problem. Someone mentioned the shell holder. I will have to figure out which one I have as it is not marked. I need a #7.

I will try that and report back.

Is that a RCBS or Redding number?  For LEE and Hornady, it's a #5.  Now I'm curious...

Well crap. I have the #5 Hornady.

Yes the#7 is RCBS. The RCBS dies don't Say anything about improved. I wouldn't doubt that the casing were shop in an improved or sloppy chamber.

I will get pictures Wed.

If a F.L. sizer die is properly made, adjusted, and used with a normal shellholder and adequate lube, it will size cases back to normal spec regardless of them having been fired in an oversized chamber. Barking up that tree ain't going to git nothin'.

This is shapin' up to be a real By-God Mystery!

Did you purchase the die new or receive it from someone... and if you did receive it from someone, is it possible that someone modified the die to move the shoulder location?  Perhaps ordering a new die set from LEE (should run about $36 for the Pacesetter set at Midway) would provide the answer.  LEE is about the easiest on the ole wallet... and IMHO just as good as anything else!

If you do get a new set of dies or just purchase a sizing die it would not hurt to get the same companies shell holder. One company's shell holder could be slightly different than another's.  Normally the slight differences in tolerance do not cause problems if you mix them, maybe you have an exception.
I did a little research on 35 Krags yesterday and found that a lot of people modify their existing dies. Unless you know the person you get your dies from when buying used, it is possible that you could get a unmarked wild cat.
One last thing review Parashooter's post on die to shell holder clearance while actually at your press.

Parashooter wrote on Dec 28^th, 2016 at 6:55am:

If a F.L. sizer die is properly made, adjusted, and used with a normal shellholder and adequate lube, it will size cases back to normal spec regardless of them having been fired in an oversized chamber. Barking up that tree ain't going to git nothin'.

Agreed. I wasn't very clear in what I was saying. I only thought the previous firearm would explain why the shoulder on pre-sized casing were so far out of spec.

Factory round next to a resized brass.
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I was originally given a RCBS set of dies, which is what I used. The dies said 30-40 krag FL. I bought another set from Amazon for $30, which turned out to be the same set and resized to the same shoulder.
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IIRC - 'RedLeg0811' has a model 1899 Krag action with a barrel of "undetermined" origin. The barrel is 22 inches long, has a 'non-arsenal' muzzle-crown, a Springfield 1905 front-sight, and 'buggered-up' rear-sight screw holes.

Maybe the barrel is not an original Springfield made Krag barrel & chamber.

FWIW - The tightest .30-40 chamber, I have, is on a Sedgely 'reworked' Krag 'sporter'. This rifle has a 22 inch barrel made from a 1905 dated .30-03 Springfield barrel. The origin of this barrel is obvious from its markings, "S.A. - 05" bracketing a flaming ordnance bomb, and notches across the barrel for front and rear-sight pins. (Although 're-cycled' and tight chambered, this barrel will accept F.L. Resized cases that were fired in other Krags).

Possibly RedLeg's barrel is a replacement, chambered with a reamer, of minimum dimensions or tolerances.

Maybe his F.L. Re-sizing Die is worn or was cut with a reamer of maximum tolerances.

Interesting riddle. I'm sure trained eyes and experienced Krag Guys will solve it if we can see it.

p.s. - RedLeg posted a cartridge case comparison picture, while I was originally typing this message.

That 'Factory Round' has a puzzling looking projectile, to me, and apparently some deformation or bending of the case rim!

FWIW - The re-sized case looks normal.

It is hard to tell much without a case actually fired in his rifle's chamber.

The case on the right doesn't look overly long to the shoulder, looks like normal blow out to me.  Your chamber must be cut short.  Like I said, I've ran into a few.  But if your chamber is cut short, where are you getting brass that isn't short?  Obviously unfired brass is going to go easier than some that have been fired in a proper length chamber.  Now the one on the left looks short to the shoulder, but since headspace is on the rim, shoulder location doesn't matter and there was some variation on new cases.  It looks to me like it has been in your rifle, and  was a tight fit though new.  The tightest one I had was an old 30-06 barrel of some sort, perhaps what old ads referred to as ordnance barrels.  Though tightly chambered, they really didn't set it back far enough and left the throat out near 30-06 length.

I have three cartridges like that and they all load. Although one is more the cupro.

I also have an Western Super X that has not been shot and it fits fine.

FWIW - Photo of three cartridge cases that will chamber in most of my Krags.

(L to R : old UMC factory round, new WW unfired case, 'fire formed' WW case).

p.s. - I think Madsenshooter is probably correct. Your chamber is 'cut short' (or the taper is tight).

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Could be whoever cut the chamber had one of those min spec cartridges and only cut as far as he needed to go to get one of them to fit.  Might have been the fellow behind some of reloading dies I get off ebay that have had the bottoms ground on!

Agreed!  I think the cartridge on the right looks normal and the one on the left looks short in the shoulder.  The projectile is very odd too!  I agree with Butlersrangers and Madsenshooter... you most likely have a chamber cut short and not able to accept brass resized with standard dies.  Have you tried a modern Remington factory round?  (You may have already stated you did... but I can't remember). 

I imagine the old exposed roundnose on that bullet made quite a splat!  I have one old die that might push the shoulder back far enough that it would chamber in your rifle.  It's an old Pacific file trim die and the shoulder on them comes out rounded like an original factory round.  Rest of my dies produce an angled shoulder when I size once fired brass.

Old loading manuals, esp. Sharpe, make reference to reloading the Krag with 190 grain bullets for the .303 Savage (which was a regular .300/.308 bore for most of its production).  They mushroomed a bit more and recoil was not as pronounced.  The bullet in the old loads looks a lot like one of the bullets for the old "Savage" load.  Try weighing one of the old rounds and compare weights with a new Remington factory load.  Could be the old ammo is not factory but an old reload.

So this is where I stand
Factory rounds load

old UMC rounds will load

Once fired brass in another rifle then resized with (new) RCBS
14701 dies will not load.

Bought brand new 14701 die and same issue.

Found some RP brass in my stash that was new. It loads with a little push at the end to close the bolt.

Friend lent me an (in the old RCBS box) RCBS 14701 die. It loads with a little push at the end to close the bolt.

So still agree that the chamber is tight, but interesting about the old dies.

Reamers wear and are re-sharpened.  When too small, they get replaced by larger reamers. 

Have you tried C-H/4D dies?  Phone them (I think they have a website & can find phone number).  They are very accommodating.  They have come up with some pretty strange dies for me (8x50R Siamese, 8x60R Kropatschek) and have been very helpful.

I would not have thought an original Krag chambered by Springfield would be small, but I guess that is what you have. If you mark one of your cases up with a Marks-A-Lot and try to chamber it, if it like my sporter reamed with too small a reamer, it will have the marks scuffed off just in front of the rim. I reamed mine with the replacement reamer by hand on the assembled rifle. I was very concerned about increasing the head space on the rim so I made a thin brass washer that would stop the reamer from touch the headspace surface. It worked like a champ.
If yours it tight on the shoulder you will have to ream full depth with the reamer, not sure if I would try that by hand on assembled barrel and reciever.
Figure out which it is so we can advise further.
When I get a chance I will post the photos of the tools under the Howto thread in the Sporterized section.

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ButlersRanger said it best.
"IIRC - 'RedLeg0811' has a model 1899 Krag action with a barrel of "undetermined" origin. The barrel is 22 inches long, has a 'non-arsenal' muzzle-crown, a Springfield 1905 front-sight, and 'buggered-up' rear-sight screw holes.

Maybe the barrel is not an original Springfield made Krag barrel & chamber."


I have marked the shoulder with sharpie and that is where it is rubbing. The shoulder on the new RCBS dies just don't push it back far enough.

I was thinking of shooting a new factory round to fire form the brass. Then compare it to brass that was resized on the new dies. I then could mill the new dies down, so it pushes the shoulder within tolerances.

I kind of like to fix what is wrong, but what you suggested could work also. Instead of facing off the die, I would face a little off the top of the shell holder. I just milled a slot in a 45 Colt shell holder to make room for primers that scoot back in my "snake" gun. The shell holder was not that hard.
The difference in length from the shoulder to the rim will be difficult to measure. I think the headspace tolerance on the rim is .006 inches. If you can take off .003 to .004 inches at a time off the shell holder till it works might be better than making a mistake measuring something that is difficult.

'FredC' suggests an excellent cheap solution for your Krag, (with the 'short chamber').

Shell Holders are relatively inexpensive. It would be easy to remove metal from the top of an 'extra' shell holder, thus allowing 'Problem Cases' to move slightly deeper into a Standard Die.

Just go slow with removing metal from the shell-holder.

Once you have it working, (so that it resizes cases fired in other Krags so they fit your 'short' chamber), paint the altered shell holder with red nail polish. You will only need to use it specifically on brass that won't chamber in "This Rifle".

It appears most new unfired brass and brass fired in this Krag will only require neck-sizing. This can be done with a regular shell-holder and a standard F.L. Re-sizing Die (backed-off one turn).

I guess great minds think alike. My buddy who is a machinest/ gunsmith on his stuff said the same thing.

The 'Truth Be Told', Parashooter stated the remedy back in Reply #7:

" .... upper surface of shellholder can be stoned or sanded thinner to allow case to enter the die farther".

Smart man - Buy him a Spritzer!

Not all dies are created equal, have a similar problem with two M70 Winchester 243 rifles.  Brass FL sized in an RCBS die will not let bolt close on one of the rifles.  A Hornady FL sizer however works for the tight chambered rifle.  Go figure. 
Since you bought new RCBS dies you might also contact RCBS and explain the problem, they have outstanding customer service.

I guess great minds think alike. My buddy who is a machinest/ gunsmith on his stuff said the same thing.

butlersrangers wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 2:42pm:

The 'Truth Be Told', Parashooter stated the remedy back in Reply #7: " .... upper surface of shellholder can be stoned or sanded thinner to allow case to enter the die farther". Smart man - Buy him a Spritzer!

Earlier we were not 100% sure where the chamber was tight. If it had been on the body diameter, shaving the shell holder enough to force it further into the chamber would have excessively set back the shoulder each time a case was reloaded.
Since Redleg's chamber was cut shallow, one other thing to watch for will be case rim interference. When setting the headspace on my sporter, I measured the rim thickness on about 100 of my new Remington cases and found several that were only .001 inch smaller than the maximum allowed. If the shoulder was not reamed deep enough it is possible that the headspace (on the rim) is also tight. If the barrel end was faced off to fix this it may be a non issue and a resized shell holder will solve everything.
Oh and Parashooter probably deserves several spritzers for all the help he has given us over the years.

Since 'RedLeg's' Krag will accept factory .30-40 ammo, the issue is likely just the positioning of the case shoulder.

A "designated" altered shell holder, for limited & special use, with this rifle and brass needing the shoulder 'bumped back' a little, is a cheap fix.

I believe, 'RedLeg' has more than one .30-40 shell-holder. It would just be wise to identify prominently any altered shell-holder. (Obliterate the # and paint it Red, to avoid unintentional use).

p.s. Keep Brass for use in this 'short chambered' Krag separate. (Put nail polish on case heads to I.D.).

FredC wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 3:08pm:

Oh and Parashooter probably deserves several spritzers for all the help he has given us over the years.

Amen to that!

butlersrangers wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 4:08pm:

Since 'RedLeg's' Krag will accept factory .30-40 ammo, the issue is likely just the positioning of the case shoulder. A "designated" altered shell holder, for limited & special use, with this rifle and brass needing the shoulder 'bumped back' a little, is a cheap fix. I believe, 'RedLeg' has more than one .30-40 shell-holder. It would just be wise to identify prominently any altered shell-holder. (Obliterate the # and paint it Red, to avoid unintentional use). p.s. Keep Brass for use in this 'short chambered' Krag separate. (Put nail polish on case heads to I.D.).

You are correct I have the hornady one for another round (303 Brit?) and bought an RCBS. I was going to shave and mark the RCBS.

Right now I only have one Krag.

Thanks guys.

+1 on the Lee dies. They are cheaper than my RCBS dies and make ammo every bit as good. Lee definitely stands behind their products and has terrific customer service. Just for the record, my 30-40 dies are Lee.
Check ebay for them. I bought mine new for less than 25 bucks.
Jon

musketjon wrote on Mar 20^th, 2017 at 12:58am:

Lee definitely stands behind their products and has terrific customer service.

Amen to that!  I had a 30-06 sizing die that I got a case stuck in and destroyed the mandrel trying to remove it.  I called LEE and they replaced the die no questions asked... even after I explained that it was MY fault!  LEE gets ALL my business!

Interesting thread.
Yelp, As Paul mentioned, I too agree that Lee are great folks to deal with!  I have a set of Lee dies for my Krag.  And as previously noted, RCBS has great customer service as well.  It might be worth a call to RCBS CS folks.  Setting the sizing die face back a few thousands would likely fix the issue. 

I had a similar problem with a 03-A4 clone where my new Hornady Custom Grade die just wouldn't set the shoulder back enough to allow for smooth bolt closing (read as tight chamber).  I called their CS people and discussed the problem.  They went thru several scenarios, including using only Hornady press and shell holder.  Now, I knew this just wasn't going to result in a solution.   CS was reluctant to reface the die.  Stating: they've had several done for customers that didn't solve the problem.  Huh, I thinking.
A few weeks later I talked with one of their guys at the NRA Convention in Louisville.  He was most helpful and provided return authorization to have the face setback 0.007".
Problem solved!
Vic

butlersrangers wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 2:42pm:

The 'Truth Be Told', Parashooter stated the remedy back in Reply #7: " .... upper surface of shellholder can be stoned or sanded thinner to allow case to enter the die farther". Smart man - Buy him a Spritzer!

/\ /\

This is what I did to push shoulder back to fit the chamber.  Needed 0.003" to make closing the bold smooth without resistance.