Guys

I was reading Cast bullets in the .30-40 Krag by Glen E. Fryxell was wondering if any of you have experience with the bullets he wrote about in the piece.

It looks interesting.  It might be something I should try at some point.

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I have four Krag sporters and spend most of my range time with them shooting cast bullets exclusively. I have had my best results with the old traditional Ideal numbers 308284, 311274,311299 and 311290. I have shot a fair number of one inch, iron sighted, five shot groups at a hundred yards, and very many sub two inch groups. 311291 that is mentioned is another good one. I try to keep velocities about 1500 fps for mild report and recoil - and good results. I normally fire 300 five shot 30-40 groups over the course of a season.

If there's any chance you plan to deer hunt with your Krag, this is a good one to consider:    (You need to Login

I'll look into those other molds.  Thanks.  Just a lot more reading to do before I even begin to get smart.  I gathered up about 150 pounds of COWW and over the last three years 240 pounds of linotype.  I should be able to do something with that once I get out of Africa

Deer hunting with a Krag.  Oy.  From your mouth to God's ear.  That would be a dream come true.  Unfornately I have to rely on my old standard .729 caliber Remington 11-87 rifle.  Deflates the heck out of deer if you hit their rib cages.  And the great thing is it leaves a barely noticable thumb sized hole inbound and outbound.  Eek!

Being in a slug only state is definitely a damper,,,,,,,.  Luckily my state started a pistol season about 20 years ago.  I'm sitting pretty with a 20" XP-100 in 30 Bellm.  (blown out and slightly shortened 30 BR) 

in the Spring I plan to test the 311-284 and the 299 against each other so that I can have Eric at Hollow
Point Mold Services do his thing for my '98 to deer hunt at the family farm in Tennessee next year.  I like the thought of going afield with a historically accurate rifle and cartridge load.

The Cast Boolits website should be your go to for loads and qustions.  The iq of the forum has dropped some in the last few years, but the search function on the site is a goldmine.

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In my Bench Rest Krag, I shoot a 185 gr NOE 311365 sized to .311 that Bob Wolfe (Madsenshooter) casts for me.  I load em with 19 grains of AA5744 and a CCI 200 primer.  I can almost shoot a double at 200 yards.

The 311365s that Paul is talking about are cast of a very hard yet malleable, alloy.  Though he's shooting them slower, I've found they're easily good for 2000fps.  Honestly, I think I've had them up around 2300-2400fps using a case full of slow burning powder.  I didn't get a good idea of accuracy at that velocity level, my sights were set for 2000fps and the much faster ones hit over the target.  There was no alloy blowing back on the case neck, a sure indicator of too much pressure for the alloy.  I'll get back to experimenting with them one of these days.  First I need another batch of that alloy!  Rich, this is the copper enriched stuff that you read about on castboolits.  I sorta made the discovery, and badgered ran with it. 

Oh yes.  Castboolits is my third favorite location after Breitbart and KCA.

You're correct.  It is a gold mine of information.  But so is this forum.

Ohio started allowing certain straight wall cartridges a few years ago so I have been told.  I just never thought about spending more cash just to shoot seven days a year every other year or so.  Oh look at that.  I'm missing deer season again.

we've used the 311291 and 311284 quite a bit in two Krag sporters, although at lower velocities, about 1500 fps.  Good accuracy and a lot of fun to shoot.  Low recoil and easy on century plus rifles.

"But so is this forum"

Boy, Howdy, and how,,,,,,,,

The copper really wasn't my idea, Whelen and Hudson were playing with a very high copper alloy. Ideal once sold the alloy, 80Pb, 10Sn, 7Sb, 3Cu.  It was called Ideal #1, or as Whelen referred to it, Ideal Bullet Metal, in his 1909 Suggestions to Military Rifleman.  I must've found the Ideal #1 in an old catalog.  I'm not close to that Cu percentage.

madsenshooter wrote on Nov 28^th, 2017 at 1:25am:

The 311365s that Paul is talking about are cast of a very hard yet malleable, alloy.  Though he's shooting them slower, I've found they're easily good for 2000fps.  Honestly, I think I've had them up around 2300-2400fps using a case full of slow burning powder.  I didn't get a good idea of accuracy at that velocity level, my sights were set for 2000fps and the much faster ones hit over the target.  There was no alloy blowing back on the case neck, a sure indicator of too much pressure for the alloy.  I'll get back to experimenting with them one of these days.  First I need another batch of that alloy!  Rich, this is the copper enriched stuff that you read about on castboolits.  I sorta made the discovery, and badgered ran with it.

LOVE copper enriched,,,,,,,amazingly tough stuff.  Bob, it's been long enough that I've forgotten the powder you were testing.  7383?

Next week after our firearm deer season is over I had it in mind to re peruse the 10B101 data to see what would apply to 165 and 195 grain cast loadings in the 30-40.

I'm still working with that stuff, but the really fast 311365 loads with the high speed alloy was a case full of WC860 with a bit of boost.  The 7383 is doing great in the K31 with 168gr Sierra Tipped Matchkings.

Copper enriched?  Is that like a kind of babbitt alloy?

Culpeper wrote on Nov 28^th, 2017 at 1:14pm:

Copper enriched?  Is that like a kind of babbitt alloy?

Easiest way is adding number 11 Babbitt alloy to your lead alloy to get to 2-3% tin and antimony, and .1 to .2% copper.  It doesn't take much copper to get the benefits.  VERY tough alloy.  As I remember (it's been awhile since I smelted a batch), I believe I added one (approx. 2lb.) ingot to 48lb.s of 50/50 wheel weights and range scrap.

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One thing to note is that when casting using copper enriched, your pot temp will have to a bit higher to get good fill out.

It is basically a babbitt, however you have to be careful not to get too much antimony.  It is too brittle with too much antimony, the bands shatter and blow back on the caseneck with only 30,000-35,000PSI.  Rich, you'd be pretty safe using 2400 data with the 10B101. 

[quote author=04322B3722372235470 link=1511761443/0#0 date=1511761443]Guys

I was reading Cast bullets in the .30-40 Krag by Glen E. Fryxell was wondering if any of you have experience with the bullets he wrote about in the piece.

It looks interesting.  It might be something I should try at some point.

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i use a 165gr ranch dog(173 gr actually) in my krag. it is going roughly 1800fps and it will go approx 1 1/4 - 2" at 100 yards(5 shots/benched). i find it quite convincing on deer, meaning they go drt!!!

sometime i have to try a 165gr rd with 2400 but h4198 is my go to powder.

I'm pushing those 311365s at around 1500 with the 19 grains of AA5744.  Really lobbing them in at 200, but the accuracy is pretty amazing!

If you tell me they're plain base, you'll make my day.  I've had a 5C 311365PB sitting beside my chair next to my coffee cup for some time now,,,,,,,,,

No, they're not plain base, gas checked.  But, your PBs might work well with Paul's load, or 15-16gr of your hard to weigh 10B101.

madsenshooter wrote on Nov 29^th, 2017 at 9:11pm:

No, they're not plain base, gas checked.  But, your PBs might work well with Paul's load, or 15-16gr of your hard to weigh 10B101.

You read my mind.

With the Chargemaster it's actually not bad with the 10B101.  The tricky part that I've not solved yet is, this particular powder immediately wants to stick to the plastic.  (learned this the hard way after not taking the time to empty between morning and evening sessions).  I have been hesitant to mix powdered graphite into the jug, but dusting the reservoir helps.

Another trick I have used, but not on plastic, is anti-static dryer sheets. This assumes it's a static problem, of course. More of a problem in the winter here in MN that other seasons.

Have you checked Rotometals to see if they will make up an alloy for you?

And have you guys tried an old Belding & Mull powder measure?  Nearly Kragish in vintage and way better than most of the newer stuff.

madsenshooter wrote on Nov 28^th, 2017 at 5:00am:

I'm still working with that stuff, but the really fast 311365 loads with the high speed alloy was a case full of WC860 with a bit of boost.  The 7383 is doing great in the K31 with 168gr Sierra Tipped Matchkings.

I use a full case of WC-860 or WC-872 with the NOE 311-202-RN for velocities of 1954 fps and 1848 fps respectively from a 26” MGM barrel on an Encore…

I see you are using 7383.  Is this the powder that is sold by one of the surplus powder sellers on the Internet?  I have a jug of it and it works well in my 6.8mm SPC, but I have not tried it in the Krag…

Any info on data for that powder.  My lot is a bit faster than IMR-4064…

Thanks…BCB

I'll pm you about the slower lot I'm working with, 48000.

[quote author=59707C786279110 link=1511761443/2#2 date=1511797506]If there's any chance you plan to deer hunt with your Krag, this is a good one to consider:    (You need to Login

thats a nice boolit!!! maybe i'll try it sometime!!!

Anyone interested in shooting Cast Bullets at Camp Perry CMP Vintage matches?

I tried, I think a couple yrs ago, with the 311365 spitzer.  The alloy I tried to use didn't hold up at the 2100fps I was going for.  They weighted 203gr, so I thought I'd try duplicating the 1907 Palma load.  Lead was blowing back on the case necks, when that happens accuracy rapidly goes south!  Even so, wasn't the worst score I ever shot! 230, back in 2014.

Cat Man wrote on Dec 31^st, 2017 at 1:14am:

Anyone interested in shooting Cast Bullets at Camp Perry CMP Vintage matches?

That is one of the reasons I asked the question. 

I read somewhere the pure linotype is good for match bullets and thought I would try that with a good mold.

I'm not positive, but I think Mark Daiute might have a few years ago (that was when we met him Bob... remember?).  I'm sure that there are others who shoot Cast at Perry too!

Make sure you get real lino.  I bought some very fine rules once.  The old printer even gave me a story about taking his lino to have it refreshed at a foundry, then taking the refreshed lino to another place to have his 2 pt rules cast.  (Rules are just lines, like the fine lines on writing paper).  I had some bad news for him, the place he got his rules at didn't use his alloy, and they were cast with something other than lino, cast with a machine other than a Linotype too.  The lino turned out to be about the same hardness as Lyman #2!  There is a wee bit of copper in most type metals, though it isn't mentioned in most of the formulas you find.  I've never really shot straight lino, the benchrest cast bullet shooters at Washtenaw used it.  Lots of Sb, it might be a bit brittle, but should work if the pressure impulse is slow.  Heat treating WW is another way to get more velocity out of cast.

Expect your bullets to be a bit lighter, depending on the alloy they were spec'd with.  As an example, NOE specs theirs with WW.  Their 311284 comes in at 214gr w/o lube or check.  I have some cast of the same alloy I mixed up for the 311365s that Paul has, they are only 204gr checked and lubed.  Since I mentioned those 311365s, NOE weight with WW is 196gr, but those are 186gr checked and lubed with my alloy.  Others like Lyman spec theirs with Lyman #2.

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I've had excellent results with 311467, 311284, Lee 180, NOE 311-174 ELCO and NOE 310-196 MX2-30H. They are all capable of 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" at 100 yds. My bore is .310 so I size them large and a bore riding nose dia. is a good thing. The powder selection has been 2400, 4759, 4064,  Benchmark and Varget

The NOE 310-196 will not feed in my rifle, the others are OK. The rifle has a 1902 sight and the front blade has been replaced with a home made, higher post with square corners.

I like that 30-H so much, I might even put a spot of brass on an extra sideplate, see if I can get it to feed.  I have one of Eagan's molds, which is a nosepour, standard size, but also got the 314 and 316 versions from NOE.  My Garand really likes the .314 version, sized .310.

Although those NOE 311365s are a spitzer design, and I only shot them in BR matches at Washtenaw (single shot only), I'm fairly certain they'd feed ok. 

They're pointy enough to prick your finger on, and the ogive is large enough to push that point into the chamber on my rifles.  No nose diving into the edge of the chamber.  If I had more of the alloy that I cast Paul's with, I'd commit to using them at Camp Perry even though I've already purchased some 173gr .310 diameter FMJBTs to experiment with.  I've long liked the idea of using bullets made myself.  I know the NOE 311284 can be seated out enough to contact the rifling and still be short enough to function through the magazine.  Another candidate for use.

Fiddler wrote on Jan 1^st, 2018 at 12:45am:

I've had excellent results with 311467, 311284, Lee 180, NOE 311-174 ELCO and NOE 310-196 MX2-30H. They are all capable of 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" at 100 yds. My bore is .310 so I size them large and a bore riding nose dia. is a good thing. The powder selection has been 2400, 4759, 4064,  Benchmark and Varget The NOE 310-196 will not feed in my rifle, the others are OK. The rifle has a 1902 sight and the front blade has been replaced with a home made, higher post with square corners.

May I ask what load you tried the MX2-30H with?  I have had great success with it in the 300 Blackout and had thought to try it in the Krag along with a couple of others.  Sorry to hear it wouldn't feed, I'm hopeful that won't be the case with mine, it just flies so nicely at moderate speeds out to 265 yards.

24 to 26 grs of 4064 gets them to group at under 2" at 100 yds. Using 4895 or Varget would probably be same general velocity range. Since they wouldn't feed I stopped experimenting with that design. Why did I stop?  Haven't a clue, I never use the mag. anyway.

Thank you Fiddler.

They are kind of an odd duck, aren't they? 

On the subject of cast for Camp Perry, I do have a quantity of NOE's 311284 that are cast of the alloy I used for Paul's bullets above.  I've had that alloy up over 211,000rpm in a 6x45 AR with a 1/8 twist and was getting good accuracy.  2000fps in a Krag would only be 144,000rpm.  I have a good selection of slow burning powders.  The bullets have been aging a few years, they're already sized and sorted by weight, 204 point something checked and lubed. A lot of casters say the 311284's accuracy tops out at around 1800fps, but it might have a velocity range it likes up a little higher.  The 311365 seemed to me to like 2175fps or so.  Totally different bullet of course.  I'll get enough loads together to see if the accuracy will hold up for 35rds.

I noted that these 311284s came out to be about the same weight as the 311365s that I tried shooting at Camp Perry a few years back.  So, I found some Quickload data for a 30" barreled Krag that BadgerEdd had worked up for me, the goal of which was to get 2150fps from a 203gr cast bullet.  I had too much lead in the alloy with the 311365 weighing in at 203, but these 311284s are cast of a much stronger alloy.  I guess we'll see whether or not there's truly a loss of accuracy above 1700-1800fps with the 311284, or if it's more a matter of the alloy the caster has used not being capable of handling the higher velocity. 

38gr of 760, fired with a CCI #34 primer, since they're designed to fire ball powders used in the 7.62x51.  Bullets were seated out to the rifle's throat, some of which I feel I washed away shooting high nitroglycerin powders.  I see four little rifling marks on the .302" borerider and a mark where the .311" upper band is just touching the conical throat. This is at an OAL of 3.117".  I decided to seat to 3.1" for the sake of magazine and charger function and to leave a little room in case I need to unload a round. 

Edd's data estimates 30,259psi chamber pressure.  With a pressure of 5109psi remaining at bullet exit.  I've still not found my RL19!

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Funny you should mention Badgeredd,,,,,,,,,he built mine,,,,,.

Following intently Bob.

I'm assuming you mean your Krag.  I still have the chunk of railroad babbitt he sent me somewhere in my mess.  It may be some time before things thaw enough to get out shooting, so I may as well load some of those .310 diameter jacketed bullets.

Aha!  I finally found my RL19!  I don't have as much of it as I thought I did though!  As luck would have it, I found a couple lbs up for auction online at a nearby gun store that's going under!  Some H414 too!  I'd nearly forgot how chunky this RL19 is, I can fit 3gr more 4831SC than RL19 under a Hornady 174gr FMJBT seated to the crimp groove in max length cases with no compression.

If you're wanting to push velocities you're really going to like that babbitt,,,,,.

Always nice to find a deal!

Alrighty.  See if my eighth grade science class has held up.  Cutting pure lead with less dense metal causes the over all volume to go.  ...up?  So my future lino bullet would be longer for a set weight of let's same 200 grains?

Less dense, and consequently lower weight, yes, longer no.  Larger in diameter, yes, due to better fill out of the cavity, and a bullet might be a very tiny bit longer due to the same, but there's only X amount of space in the mold, said space just gets filled a wee bit better.  Volume is of the mold cavity, stays the same.  Mine are running about 10gr lighter than what the same bullet would weigh in WW.  There's a bit less shrinkage as the alloy cools and solidifies vs an alloy with more lead.