Hello, fellow Krag collectors. I need your help. I have a Model of 1899 Altered for Knife Bayonet and Sling Carbine that I would like to get opinions on with regard to a couple unusual features.

This carbine is 41 1/4 inch long and has a 22 inch barrel. Rear sight is a 1902 Carbine sight. Barrel is turned down appropriately and the sling attachments appear correct. It has the bayonet lug. I don't fully understand, because of poor pictures in Poyer's and Brophy's books, which I have studied carefully, of the cut stock and the added walnut filling piece for the lightening cut. This carbine does appear to have that added piece which is glued in as I can see when I take the front barrel band off.

I am confused by two things. The date is an error type date which sure looks like 1899 but the "9" is double stamped or it is a "9" over an "8". I remember seeing something about this kind of date error somewhere.

Also, the cartouche looks like JSA 1901, which is OK, but there appears to be an additional cartouche of some sort stamped to the right of the JSA box which is definitely a square boxed cartouche which has room for numerous letters but the only one I can make out appears to be a capital "D" as the last letter. This doesn't match any documented cartouche that I have found, yet.

So, I will try to attach numerous close up pictures of these details to illustrate what I am describing.

What do you guys think?

I feel fairly certain that this is a typical School rifle/carbine. But, I would like feedback on these unusual details.

Thanks a lot for the help!!

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I actually changed the bolt to the one you see currently which has the headless cocking piece. If it is more correct, I can replace it with the one it came with which is the common full head cocking piece. There was no problem with the original- I just thought it looked better with the headless one which was often found on 1899 Carbines.

'Whig' - FWIW - That is a nice little Krag with a real model 1899 carbine action and barrel.

I believe the front barrel-band is not legit for an Armory made 'school rifle'. It is very poorly fitted to the stock tip, unlike Armory work, which is finely done. It also lacks the correct shape bayonet lug.

A correct "School Rifle" front band would have been stretched with a press and arbor to fit the larger diameter, at the 'muzzle area', of a carbine barrel.

You have a pretty nice Arm, but, I think this combination has been put together in the civilian market.

I would like to see a picture of your 1902 rear sight with the leaf 'up' so that the spring is visible.

I asked about upper bands and on an earlier post about my school rifle in this section.  The picture of a school rifle in Poyer's book, fig 2-23, p 45 shows no bevel.  This one looks like mine and Poyer.  Is there some clarification on the go and  no/go criteria for a true school rifle?
Joe

The tip and fill work are definitely not up to snuff. The lug bevel is not widely known, but remember, this arm was meant to use the long M1903 bayonet, NOT that of the Krag, which has a different latch hook actuation. The bevel makes attachment of the correct bayonet easier, and is one of the little points to check for - though not all legit specimens have it.

The most desirable cartouche for a school gun is the small-boxed JFC, not the normal Krag "JSA/date" style.

That all said, they were secondary pieces, not all done at SA, but all done at a time period when ANY stock date would have been available. The 98/99 date overstrike is interesting but I believe it is only on the SG by accident or coincidence.

That appears to be an 1898C base with a 1902 leaf, since the rails are so low.

I second Chuck's (BR's) opinion that this piece has some "issues" and is likely not a proper collector-grade piece. Sorry.

Here are a few more key pictures. Not sure about the rear sight concern. Leaf looks correct but I don't know the exact differences.

I wish the books I have would have better pictures. It's surprising that two of the most referenced books have crappy pictures for helping to determine important features on these collectible firearms.

Thanks.

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I have never owned a 'Philippine Constabulary rifle' or a 'School Rifle'. I am not sure I have ever seen or handled a REAL one. I have seen obvious fakes.

I learned as a young collector, a lot of Krag cut-downs were being passed off as PC Carbines. Nobody was even talking about 'School Rifles'. It is likely only two PC Rifles have survived. Over 1,400 'School Rifles' were sold to academies by the Government, so some are out there.

'Hey Joes' Short Krag is about as convincing a candidate as I have seen posted here. The most suspicious thing about it to me is that it has a model 1898 carbine rear-sight on it.

'Whigs' Short Krag has an obvious standard Krag front barrel-band on it and shows a very crude wood and metal fit at the stock tip. A correct band would fit the wood and metal contours with near perfection.

Interestingly, both Hey Joe and Whig appear to have similar 'cartouche' stamps on their Krags. (I don't really think the worn marking is 'MOD', for Manila Ordnance Depot, unless someone in the past engaged in fakery).

Whig's serial number, 225798, is an early model 1899 carbine number. Northwestern Military Academy purchased 120 School Rifles, including #225627 & 225901. Since Whig's number does not appear in Mallory's SRS Data, it is not likely Whig's Krag went to NWMA.

#225798 was assembled around September, 1899. It is in the range of carbines and rifles that were made with the 'headless cocking piece, (202,000 to 285,000 - per Mallory).

Attached photos: 1. Whig's barrel-band does not fit barrel contour, like a correct band should. 2. Krag Constabulary band.

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'Whig' - You have a very legitimate model 1902 carbine sight. Congratulations, only 1,000 of these were made.

If the 1902 top was on a model 1898 base, which has a different type of leaf spring and a lower elevation ramp, it would indicate a questionable rear-sight, likely put together by a surplus dealer.

It appears the standard rifle front barrel-band did a lot of the damage to your stock tip. It was 'force fit'.

Here's a couple of pictures of real PC 'short rifles'.

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I didn't realize I had one of those rare 1902 Carbine sights. Thanks for the good news!

What should I do with this carbine? Is there any chance a real school carbine front band is available to fit on this? Or should I just leave it as is?

How much is this 1902 Carbine sight worth by itself?

Those pictures I've seen and examined closely before but they don't look any different from mine. I still don't know what an authentic front band should look like on a school rifle because the pictures are all bad.

Thanks.

Movieman 630, aka Grandpa's gun parts, had an original PC rifle front barrel-band, but, it sold. (I used his picture of the band on one of my responses).

A nice Krag model 1902 carbine sight, like yours, should be worth about $200 to $250. However, it is a slow seller. It looks great on your Krag and should stay there - IMHO. It has likely been on your Krag for a long, long, time. It is a correct sight possibility for a School Rifle.

If I owned your very nice Krag, I would alter your current front-band by either stretching or grinding the interior of the top part, so that it fits the barrel contour. I would repair the cracks and build up the forearm tip with a mix of bedding epoxy and walnut wood dust. I would refit the now altered barrel-band for a good appearance, making sure it accepts a bayonet.

I would enjoy and describe this 'School Rifle' as a "restoration", that contains a high percentage of correct parts. The stock may be correct, but, repaired. The front barrel-band is an altered rifle band.

A real 'School Rifle' used a shortened and plugged Rifle Stock. The Stock Tip area was reshaped to accept a rifle front barrel-band. The top part of that barrel-band had been stretched to accept a larger barrel diameter. When it was all assembled, it looked a lot like the same area on a standard rifle.

Since a lot of skilled craftsmen could duplicate this look, it makes positively identifying this Krag variant, problematic.

 

I appreciate all the help. I still am at a loss as to the exact changes in the front band that would need to be made to fit correctly as with an official school barrel band like the one Grandpa's gun parts had for sale.

Does anyone have a real school carbine that can take good pictures and dimensions for me to replicate? Did someone here buy that one from Grandpa's gun parts? I'd like to find someone who has one for me to try to alter or someone who could alter one properly.

Otherwise, I'll just leave it alone and watch for an available band in the future. It's a nice carbine overall anyway. I'd like to know more about what the second Cartouche is also.

Measure the diameter of your barrel, where your front band now sits high.

To fit correctly, the inside radius of the top part of your barrel band should match the radius of the barrel (plus probably .002").

The Armory accomplished this by 'stretching' regular Rifle front barrel-bands. (The home hobbyist may have to resort to 'grinding' the top inside of a regular front band with a Dremel Tool and polishing with Emery Cloth). 

Pictures are not the issue. Fit is.

Krag front bands should fit like this, even on School Rifles:

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Thanks for the good advice. I have a number of other Krags I can examine from this perspective to consider what I need to do. I'm going to search around first to see if I can locate another appropriate barrel band before getting the files and Dremel out.