Ten + years ago, I spent a lot of time and a few hundred $$ looking for a Lee Navy rifle in collectible condition.  Then one guy was reportedly killed when shooting one (firing pin blew out the back of the bolt & entered shooter's head) and I rapidly lost interest. 

Shortly after that, I read that the USMC came up with an in-service fix to remedy that problem. Apparently some rifles have the fix but most do not.  Fix is a wide external band on the outside of the rear of the bolt.  Does anyone know any of the USMC/USN details?

Hmmmm.  I have never heard of the mod to which you refer.  Could it be a difference in the bolt stop?  Something akin to the change in the Krag cutoff change where the bolt stop needs to be in a certain position to remove the bolt.  I have LNs from the first contract and the second contract.  However I am three months away from them to check if there is any difference in the stops.

There has been a couple of thoughts on what killed Sarco's DeRuitter.  One was a double charge of fast powder and the other was reformed Krag brass.  A bolt stop in the wrong position could be bad juju.

Let me know if you ever want to give the LN a new home.

I had also heard about re-formed Krag brass being involved.  That makes no sense to me.  Quite good LN ammo can be made from .220 Swift brass by turning off the rim flush with the base and expanding the neck.  Or get a set of case forming dies and use NEW .30-06 brass.  Need a sturdy press for that.

Looking at the LN bolt from the back, with the bolt in place and in firing position, on an unmodified bolt, the end of the firing pin assembly is easily seen.  The mod is a heavyish piece of  sheet metal that is somehow fastened to the back of the bolt. Maybe with screws? Or maybe fits into grooves cut into the bolt.  The metal piece is blued.  If there were some sort of case failure with hot gas, the mod should deflect the gas and retain a broken striker.

IIRC, the bolt stop & release is just a plunger on the left side, at the rear of the action.  Push it down & pull out the bolt.

There was that gentleman over on Jouster who blew up a LN using reformed krag brass but I don't have the particulars at the moment.

I bought a run of "LN ammo" from Buffalo Arms that was reformed from virgin 25-06 cases.  The first batch had neck splits even before I fired them and the second batch, purchased two years later, did not have any splitting issues.  Would 30-06 give a longer neck than 25-06 when it is sized downard?

I will keep an eye out for pictures of the different bolts.  Just not familiar enough with it.


Geez.  I wish I had access to the rifles so I could know for sure.  Do you have the various pamphlets and manuals for the LN?

 

The Changes and Alterations to the Winchester-Lee Rifle were many and eventually involved: the bolt, bolt-stop, firing-pin, safety, and extractor.

Author, Eugene Myszkowski, in his work, "The Winchester-Lee", does a noble job of documenting, explaining, and attempting to illustrate these subtle part differences and evolution. (Still, it is somewhat confusing to me).

IMHO - Myszkowski's works on the Winchester-Lee and Remington-Lee should be in every Krag enthusiast's library. The price of the paper-bound Excalibur Publications is reasonable.

The re-print of the Navy 'ordnance manual' is also fun to have.

As a young collector, I once owned a commercial Winchester-Lee sporting rifle that I bought for $25 from a 'bubba' in Northern Michigan.

I was able to undo most of the stove paint and wood damage 're-finish' that was done to it. However, at $1.00 a round (for original ammo in the late 1960's), I never got to shoot it. It was certainly too advanced a re-loading project for me at that time.

Even in my youth, I realized there were many 'weak' aspects to the Lee Straight-Pull design and parts.

Do you have a link for Mr. Myszkowski's book?  I need to pick up a copy.

You can go to Forgotten Weapons and download a copy of the Ordnance manual and my copy of the commerical pamplet.

Ol' Don Quixote doesn't have anything on me.  The Win LN is my windmill.  I shot Krag 112 at Perry but what I really want is to do is shoot the LN and the other 1895 there.

Whoops - I guess these are rare books now!

Amazon is pricing Myszkowski's "The Winchester-Lee Rifle" at $713.52 and "The Remington-Lee Rifle" at $1,200.04. (Pretty good return on my $22.95 investments)!

I am no good at posting 'Links', but, I believe if you 'google' - militarybooks@earthlink.net - you may find used copies of the Myszkowski works for around $35.

(or, I will sell you my pair for an even $1,000)  8-) Good Luck!

p.s. There is a used copy on ebay - Buy Now $39.95.

---

Blown Lee pictures:

IIRC -  the reloaded cartridge cases were formed from .30-40 brass. The rim was machined off and a deep extractor groove was machined into the case.

In my opinion, this potentially left the brass 'paper thin' in the web area of some altered cases. Catastrophic Case Failure likely allowed huge gas pressure to tear apart this Winchester-Lee. The bolt and firing-pin remained in place in this incident.

The 'Shooter/Owner' thankfully survived the episode with facial lacerations and black-eyes. He knowledgably reported, photographed, and documented his accident. He posted his experience on another forum. He generously gave permission to post his photos on the KCA forum a few years back.

The pictures generate many different opinions as to the cause of the rifle's failure and destruction.

---

Wow!  Nowadays, Lee Navy rifles are expensive.  Makes me curious about the details of that disaster.  Good thing the guy survived.

I searched the Internet for the $23 paperback, which I should have bought during my initial search.  Instead, I found this:

  (You need to Login

Military pattern rifles were produced throughout the civilian range of 10000 to 15000. The earliest production rifles conformed to first contract US Navy specifications. Most, however, had the latest Navy improvements: a gas shield machined as part of the bolt rather than pinned and brazed on, a sighting groove in top of bolt, a low bolt stop, a roller firing pin lock and sometimes a hardened screw on the side of the receiver for the Navy extractor to contact.

The later production rifles reflect the improvements Winchester implemented in response to problems of extraction and gas leakage. A number of rifles, both military pattern and sporting, were noted as “A” model. This referred to the front-mounted short extractor spring, bolt with two gas holes on top, floating firing pin, and gas vent on the left side of the receiver. Some rifles are recorded as “Style A Except Extractor & Spring last Navy style”.

The article on Lee Navy rifles from the Winchester Collectors site mentions rifles marked USNM with a separate SN, not the Winchester-assigned SN.  The writer of the article wrote that he did not know what "USNM" meant, thought that it was US Naval Militia.  I do not think this is correct.  My thought is that USNM means United States Navy Magazine, a name used from at least Sp-AM War days up to the present.  Almost all such places had small arms in storage and often had repair capabilities.  Why some were called Naval Magazines and others Naval Ammunition Depots is a mystery to me.  I was stationed at NAD West Loch (HI) and Charleston (SC) and at Naval Magazine Guam and never observed any difference in operating procedures.

I have a photo of a USNM rifle. Somewhere.  It shows the USNM number in the normal place and then it shows a winchester number on the right side rail of the receiver.

Just gotta find it.  Could be on a destroyed external hard drive.

Found it.  As you can see there is a Winchester serial number on the rifle.  Memory did not fail me this time.

The only question regarding the Naval Militias is which one of them purchased the rifles. Perhaps the Cody Museum has the Winchester records.

  (You need to Login

  (You need to Login

  (You need to Login

---

Per Eugene Myszkowski, "The Winchester-Lee Rifle", page 88 - Appendix:

"US Naval Militia Purchase

Same specifications as first contract.

Identifying Characteristics:
Hardened screw in side of receiver.
Low bolt stop and firing pin lock.
Gas shield machined as part of bolt.
Sighting groove in top of bolt.
Winchester serial number between 11252 - 14183
stamped lightly on right receiver rail.
USNM number between 1 -186 stamped on receiver ring.
Inspector stamps:
Receiver ring:       U.S.N.M.
                           (anchor)
                            No. xxx
                             X.X.X.
Numbers 1 - 70 inspected by JNJ, 71 - 86 by CAB and 87 - 186 by FHS."

Culpeper's picture enhanced:

---

Myszkowski states (pages 44-46) it his belief that U.S.N.M. stands for U.S. Naval Militia.

He found no Navy documentation authorizing the marking or indicating shipment to a State Naval Militia.

There were 186 USNM marked rifles and they were purchased by the US Navy.

JNJ - inspected by Lt. John N. Jordan, USN.

CAB - inspected by Lt. Charles A. Brand, USN.

FHS - inspected by Lt. Frank H. Schofield, USN.

Where & when did the USNM & SN marking take place?  At the Winchester factory?  Are the stamps the same as Winchester?  Same for SN stamps?  And how are non-USNM rifles accepted for USN/USMC service marked?

I assume that the USN inspections took place at the Winchester factory?

How many Lee Navy rifles have been blown up since the internet came into use?  & how many such accidents have been at least discussed (or maybe photographed in all their horrible detail?

And has anyone ever heard of a .25 Souper?  A wildcat made from 6mm Lee Navy brass with the neck expanded to .25 caliber.  One old timer told me that is what was done with some of the surplus Lee Navy rifles after their issue barrels were no longer accurate.

Hmmm...hadn't heard of the 6mm Lee Navy being the parent cartridge for the Souper. I had understood it to be a 25 caliber .308 case. I'll have to look again.

I recall seeing the name Souper, in one of my case forming books, but can't recall details without finding the book!  Oh, it jumped out at me, thickest book I have!  Book says .25-308 for the Souper.  All I see  in 25 cal wildcats that approximate the 6mm's headsize is 30-40 and .303 wildcats.  But I'll bet somewhere along the way someone made a .25 Swift or maybe a .25 Lee!

Referring back to BR's pic of the blown rifle.  That 30/40 case held.  The problem was how much it had to hold, as evidenced by the expanded primer pocket.  Yes, it was likely a little weaker with it's machined extractor groove, but it was strong enough to hold through all that primer pocket enlargement.  Someone didn't load it right, or created an SEE event shooting a thick jacketed bullet in a rough throat with a light charge.   My opinion anyway.

madsenshooter wrote on Feb 9^th, 2018 at 12:15am:

I recall seeing the name Souper, in one of my case forming books, but can't recall details without finding the book!  Oh, it jumped out at me, thickest book I have!  Book says .25-308 for the Souper.  All I see  in 25 cal wildcats that approximate the 6mm's headsize is 30-40 and .303 wildcats.  But I'll bet somewhere along the way someone made a .25 Swift or maybe a .25 Lee!

Back in 1989, I was messing about with a Lee Navy sporter with a bad barrel.  The old time gunsmith that was helping me said "back in the day, they would have bored it out to .25.  There was a wildcat called the Souper. Just the Lee Navy case necked up to .25 caliber."