Hi All, New to forum, Picked up a krag rifle sporterized the other day for 50$ would like some info on it if anyone can help? The serial # is 34644 1896 springfield armory U.S.. Thank You, Mark

Welcome! How about posting some pictures? The price is scary cheap.

'kragy' - Welcome to the KCA Forum.

Talk about luck - a Springfield Research Service (SRS) hit! (Only a small percentage of U.S. Krag rifles and carbines are in the SRS Data).

Krag, # 34644, was found listed in official documents:

#34644 - 1896 carbine - issued 01/07/1898 to 3rd. Cavalry.

BTW - Your Krag carbine was originally built around June, 1896.

You definitely want to post some (close and well focused) pictures here, for a better assessment and guidance!

If you want to double your $50 'Bucks' ..... I'm your 'Huckleberry'.

Photo of U.S. model 1896 carbines:

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Hi Butlersrangers, site will not allow pics to be posted, comes back error message to large so will try to describe verbally...Rifle here has been "sporterized; the stock has been cut down a couple inches, the rear site has been removed, a redfield peep sight has been installed towards the end of the receiver on the left side, the magazine switch has been removed and the cavalry ring has been removed. Do you think it would be worth it money wise to restore it to original condition? How much do you think it would cost? Also would you have any info on the 3rd cavalry?If not could you point the direction to find some? Thank You very much, Mark

Hi Butlersrangers, Did a little research on the 3rd. This rifle fought on san juan hill in cuba? can you verify?

This site very definitely allows pictures - all you need to do is reduce the size. If you do not know how to do that, several of us would be happy to perform the trick if they were emailed to us. Chuck (B/R) has done it for many people. I would think your gun would DEFINITELY be well worth restoring.

'kragy' - You definitely should buy a 'power ball' lottery ticket this week.

Your pictures simply have to be smaller than 768 KB to post.

(I do this on my computer with Microsoft Office 2010 program, reducing picture size, by selecting 'for sending in documents').

I shoot pictures for posting with a small Canon Digital Camera using .3 Megapixel setting. IMHO - Close detail shots are better than attempts to get whole gun into picture, when it comes to assessing a firearm.

The 3rd U.S. Cavalry was in Cuba (dismounted) for the Santiago Campaign and involved at Kettle and San Juan Hills (July 1, 1898).

The 3rd Cavalry was in Luzon, Philippine Islands, from October 1899 to 1902, fighting Insurgents.

Your Krag likely saw some action!

Your Redfield receiver ('peep') sight is hopefully one of the 'No-Drill' models, which required no 'new' holes or permanent changes to your receiver. This makes restoration a lot easier.

My advice to you is: "Do no harm". (Don't refinish, discard, or zealously clean anything, until you know how to proceed).

BTW - Most Gun Shops and 'Gunsmiths' are to be avoided. Commonly, they know nothing about Krags. Also, there is a lot of terrible misinformation on the internet.

You would be well advised to buy Joe Poyer's book, "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine", for around $25. It is not without errors, but, it will help you immensely.

If you post some good pictures on the KCA Forum, we can and will help and advise you.

p.s. - My offer of $100 cash money still stands!  8-)

Attached photo shows an example of a Redfield 'no-drill' sight.

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Hi Butlersrangers, Sent some pics to Richard which hopefully he will be able to post; the quality may be lacking as the camera used is not the best. Have already ordered the book you advise. The redfield sight on the rifle is the same one as the pic you posted. When you say this rifle probably saw some action and was at san juan hill in cuba do you think it was with the rough riders? Have no intension of altering the rifle in any way and unless it is worthwhile to do so will leave it in it's current configuration. Realize what your saying about gunsmiths and appreciate your generous offer and would like to know what the rifle is worth but would like to keep it in a personal collection for the time being. If you have no idea what the rifle is worth monetarily can you point the right direction for that info? Thank You All once again for your interest, info and help, Mark

Mark - Putting a value on an antique rifle requires a solid idea of its condition, originality, overall appearance and appeal.

Alterations and sanding of wooden gunstock, hurt value. Bore condition and exterior finish & patina are important.

Putting a value on a gun is a judgment call, requiring a trained eye, knowledge and experience.

A complete and correct U.S. model 1896 Krag carbine will often fall into the $1,200 to $2,000 range.

However, you have indicated serious problems with your 'sportered' Krag. The carbine rear-sight is missing. This item will cost $500-$600 to replace!

You have stated the Stock was 'shortened'. This is a rare and expensive item to find.

Your carbine is not a "Rough Rider" (1st U.S. Volunteer Cavalry) carbine. Those numbers are known.

You do have a carbine that is documented as being issued to the 3rd U.S. Cavalry. A unit that saw serious action in Cuba and the Philippines. It is tricky to put a value on that.

Your Krag is more interesting than the typical $275-$325 cut-down 'Deer Rifle' Krag.

I look forward to seeing pictures of its condition.

p.s. - I assume you know I am joking with the $100 offer. Hell, I will quadruple what you paid.  :o

Mark: FWIW - The Redfield 'no-drill' rear sight commonly sells for $75 to $100 on ebay. Fortunately, this sight required no alterations to your Krag.

The sight did require the removal of the magazine cut-off switch and the use of a longer (Redfield made) side-plate screw.

A correct side-plate screw and the model 1896 cut-off lever are easy parts to find on ebay and from parts vendors (and should cost around $30, total).

The model 1896 carbine sight is hard to find for sale and expensive.

For display and shooting purposes, the model 1896 rifle sight is similar in appearance and can be bought with mounting screws for around $60.

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Hi Butlersrangers, Thank You again for your interest, info on 34644,  and you generous offer of 200$. From your info seems the rifle is pretty much worth what was paid for it as it needs a new rear sight, mag cutoff, stock. Fortunately the bore is bright and shiny and there is no rust or pitting. Curious of it's historical significance and monetary value but more interested as a collector. Seems the price of restoration would far outweigh 34644's value so will leave it in it's current configuration. Tried to send picks to Richard but once again the message containing them was returned saying it was too large and computer skills here are lacking on reduction so...looks like it will end here. P.S. You seem quite knowledgeable about military weapons, springfields in general so would like to ask a question here that is off topic. Acquired with this collection was a remington 03a3 40552417 vintage 1943. It appears to be in new condition; catch is it has a modified stock and a 16 in barrel. So far the net has produced no info on this weapon, realize it is not a "bushmaster". One source says it was made for the "Philippine campaign" but this is not verifiable. Know there were many of these cut down but this one appears to be uncut original factory barrel in a 16 in length. Could this be a one off or some sort of prototype? Remington society seems to have no info and would like to get a definite answer before replacing the barrel with a 24 in one.

Mark - Sounds like your Remington 1903A3 has been cut-down for 'Hunting'. I can only imagine the 'Fireball' that comes out of a 16 inch .30-06 barrel.

Lots of people, who dabble in 'Bubba Guns', get real creative with stories, when they are selling them.

Good Pictures are invaluable when trying to ID and assess a collectable gun.

If you want to try to send pictures to me of your carbine or 1903A3 Springfield, I am sending you a PM with my email address.

I received the pics on his third try, will post shortly. I have never seen a 30" carbine stock shortened before! Sad, because it is one of the original thin-wristers too.

As to the '03, be aware that barrels under 18" are HIGHLY illegal. I would pull it and DESTROY it IMMEDIATELY!!!!

Thanks for the info on the short barrel Dick, will have the smith remove and replace it once determined it is not a factory proto and again for posting the pics when you get a chance.  Chuck, tried to send you the pics of the 03 and the krag to the address you gave but they were returned saying undeliverable.               

I am having a terrible time reducing the pics - be patient! Only 2 of the 3 are usable. Close-up of the s/n was unreadable.

Here you go.

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I would most definitely restore that, even though it will take awhile and cost a few bucks. Treat it as a long-term "fun" project. If you rush and pay retail for everything you may approach its' actual value - but not everyone gets to start at the $50 point! Here is what it should look like

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Mark - I did receive your pictures of the Krag carbine and the Remington 1903A3. They can be downloaded and viewed, but, not altered on my computer.

FWIW - Actually, Federal law allows rifle barrels to be as short as 16 inches, now. Shotgun barrels still have to be 18 inches long.

Your Remington 1903A3 appears to have been cut-down for 'Hunting'. The work was neatly done, but, not official government work. If it were mine, I would have a replacement, full length, surplus 1903A3 barrel put on it and stretch the stock. (If the barrel is 16 inches long, measured from the muzzle to the closed bolt-face, it is legal).

Too bad about the alterations to your model 1896 carbine stock. (Thank you, Dick Hosmer, for kindly posting Mark's pictures). The metal appears quite nice.

Thanks for telling me about the new 16" limit - brought about by the black rifle boys?

Since, October 22, 1968, you must have 'cut class' that day Dick!

Not so many 'Black Rifles' around, 50 years ago.

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Chuck or Dick, Can you put a ballbark figure on 34644's worth if it was restored to original condition, shiny barrel, no pitting? Thank You Mark

Ballpark - $1,200 to $1,600

Keep in mind, a restoration is a restoration and not necessarily the way your carbine entered service, was issued to the 3rd Cavalry, or left service, when sold to the public.

There are model 1896 carbine Stock variations, 1896 carbine sight variations, bolt and cut-off variations. It is hard to get it right or credible and the finish on everything has to be consistent.

In the end, you have a 'parts gun' that is worth the value of the parts. (Although, some very interesting parts).

I'd concur on the value, might even be higher. The stock and the rear sight will be the big problems. Chuck's idea of using (even if temporarily) a rifle sight is a good one - 95% of the people couldn't tell the difference from 5' away. And, of course you could resell it when no longer neaded. Everything else is common and resonable.

A question, is the stock drilled for three rod sections in a trinagle, or just two, one above the other? If the latter - which are EXTREMELY rare - you might want to consider having a wood expert restore the front of your stock.

In selecting metal parts, be choosy and get the best color/patina match that you can. It's nice that the bore is good but that is not a huge factor in the value.

Thank You Chuck and Dick for the evaluation info; sad that the restoration parts outstrip the rifles value, seems a documented krag deserves a better fate. Will try to preserve it as best as possible for it's next home. Hope to see the local gunsmith within the next couple weeks to see if what appears to be 34644's first obstacle can be overcome....the sight screws are snapped off in the barrel. Don't think that will go well but if it can be overcome....one step at a time.  Not sure what a three hole as opposed to a two hole drilled stock is Dick; can you explain more specifically what to look for?

Eventually, a butt-trap was adopted for U.S. Krag rifles and carbines. This provided a place to store Cleaning-Rod sections. Later, many stocks had the cavity altered to also store an oil container.

On later Krags, the top large hole, bored into the Stock-Butt, had 3 smaller holes (drilled into the bottom) that accepted 3 rod sections.

The early carbine stocks had just 2 holes, to accept 2 cleaning-rod sections.

(Mark - You have to shine a light down the top large butt-trap hole, to see the bottom and how the smaller holes are configured).

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Mark - Hopefully, you have access to a good gunsmith.
Do not let a 'Klutz' damage the rear sight holes on your barrel!

Do No Harm!

Krag (rear-sight) screw-threads are kind of rare (.156 inch X 30 TPI). You will not find replacement screws at the local hardware store or most gun shops!

I have had good success removing the cut-off screw shanks. (People, use to, cut the heads off of the sight-screws to fill the tapped holes).

My method is to lightly center-punch the remains of the ('cut') screw. Carefully, drill a fine hole deep down the center of the screw-shank. Wipe some 'liquid wrench' around the barrel sight-screw area. Tap a small screw-driver into the shank for a 'friction fit'. Then unscrew the 'headless' screw.

This has worked for me four or five times with no damage to the hole or female sight-screw threads.

Do No Harm!

p.s. It would be a good idea not to shoot this Krag in its current state. There is no barrel-band holding the barrel solidly in the stock's barrel channel. It is real easy to crack a Krag stock when the barrel lifts and puts stress on the (close together) trigger-guard screws.

Hi Chuck, Thank You for the info; the stock is the more common 3 hole version. Appreciate your advise not to fire and will not do so. The stock butt plate was different then the pic you posted, it is checkered and when opening found a small piece of paper which hopefully you will be able to make some sense of....180 gr s.f. 0-100 yds inches 50 & 3/4, 100 0, 200 -5.5,300 -22.5,400 -5.5, 500 -18.8 Looks like someone has been firing this rifle at some time? Here in ny, close to city there are no good local gunsmiths; we live under the libs rule here and they have done away with them; fortunately we have a cabin in vt and the gunsmith there is very knowledgeable; thing is he is 65 and not that motivated to work anymore. He is good natured and takes on all work but finds himself only able to complete about 50% of it and that can take up to a yr. As you say don't do any harm above all, so would ask you this as you seem to have experience with snapped sight screws; would you be willing to take on the job if it is not doable from this point? Would it be legal to send you the action in the mail? How much would it cost? Mark

Mark - U.S. Krag butt-plates were made smooth.

It sounds like someone has either 'checkered' the original plate or shortened the butt-stock a bit, and fitted, a 1903 Springfield rifle ('checkered' variant) butt-plate to your stock. (A clear, 'close-up' picture would explain a lot).

Interesting paper in the butt-trap - It appears to be a 'trajectory chart' (to aid adjusting sights) for 180 grain S.P. (soft-point bullet) .30-40 'Krag' hunting ammo, for various distances.

At 50 yards, bullet strikes 3/4 inch above point of aim. At 100 yards, bullet strikes point of aim. At 200 yards, bullet strikes 5.5 inches low. At 300 yards, bullet strikes 22.5 inches low. (400 & 500 yard data doesn't make sense, unless, it is 55" and 188")?

I am sending you a PM. Check the top of this page (in the Banner) for message prompt to 'click on'.

Mark sent me a picture of his carbine's butt-plate, which I have edited a bit.

The butt-plate is a 'checkered' one from a 1903 Springfield rifle. Note, the butt-trap 'door' is a larger diameter than the 'door' on a Krag butt-plate.

The butt-end of Mark's stock must have been shortened about 3/4 of an inch. A 1903 butt-plate is about 1/4" shorter, (heel to toe), than a Krag butt-plate.

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Well, the stock was toast anyway - and, since it is also not the two-holer, simply needs to be replaced - the overall equation doesn't change much, IMHO, since he is starting at only $50. If he was $400 into it, as most people would be, then restoration would be borderline.

In Arkansas, this would be a 'two holer'.

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Who ever switched the butt plate did an excellent job, it looks original, like you say Dick the stock is pretty much toast anyway as far as restoring goes but aside from the monetary  value hopefully a step by step procedure will be able to take place for it's unique historical value. Realize it would never be more then a parts gun but if they are time accurate replacements and what is left of the original are somehow able to remain with 34644 so be it... we'll see where it's fate takes it.

butlersrangers wrote on Apr 17^th, 2018 at 2:50pm:

In Arkansas, this would be a 'two holer'.

Where's the crescent moon?

I think the 18" length applies to shotguns. I believe 16" rifle barrels are legal ( maybe not in CA.)

Mark- I know there are several good gun smiths on Long Island if yo do not wish to use your guy in VT.  If you go into a reputable local gun shop they will be able to recommend someone to you.  I wish I could provide someone to you but a hunting buddy of mine does my work and he is retired so will only do work for friends. If I was you I would just make a list of everything you need done and slowly do everything one at a time.  A lot of the work you can do yourself.  Do not rush and make sure you get the right parts.  I am sure you will be happy you restored it when you are done.

Thank You all who helped with 34644's next steps in life, especially Chuck & Dick you are two very solid guys. Good to hear there are still some good smiths out there on the island, will keep your info in mind if other avenues prove fruitless. Sad that up here in Westchester anyone with talent or experience has either passed or moved on.