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Message started by Hamish on Jul 25th, 2018 at 4:48pm

Title: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Hamish on Jul 25th, 2018 at 4:48pm
Slipped out to the range to fire form some Jamison brass using 10gr Unique and the NOE 314-160 last evening.

I had replaced the sight blade with a NOS Lyman gold bead in the hopes that I might be able to see it somewhat better on the target.

I believe I'm going to have to mount a scout scope as I'm not sure if I can blame the 4" groups at 25 yards on the load or my eyes,,,,,,. 

I notice there is a Pacific no drill recvr sight on eBay, but I'm not sure if that would ameliorate the problem as well as a scope would.

Noteworthy was the fact that I had to give up trying to feed them from the magazine as the cartridges would nose dive and plant the flat point against the magazine just low of the feed ramp.  Inexperience with the Krag leaves me unsure if I have a mechanical problem or if this design just will not feed in the rifle.

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 25th, 2018 at 7:26pm
Hamish:
In my experience, Krags are 'individuals'; there is variability in whether a Krag successfully feeds various bullet profiles.

In theory, if a Krag feeds original 'Ball Ammo', with its 220 grain RN projectile, the rifle is working correctly.

Recently, I was shooting two model 1896 Krags using reloads with 168 grain Sierra 'Match King' projectiles, seated to 3.075" Over-All-Length.

One Krag would feed a full magazine of these cartridges flawlessly.

The other Krag jammed on every round, with the spitzer point catching on the barrel breech, at approximately "8 o'clock".

(Both rifles will feed 180 grain 'Hunting' projectiles and 220 original "Ball" rounds, trouble free).

Receiver sights tighten up groups for most shooters. The 'aperture' size can be changed to allow for lighting conditions. The goal is to look through the 'aperture' and see the front-blade and target clearly.

Attached photos: 1.&2. 168 Sierra Mk reload nicely 'centers' and feeds on this Krag.
3.&4. On this Krag, every round hangs-up on barrel breech.
IMG_1181.JPG ( 63 KB | 1 Download )
IMG_1181b.JPG ( 61 KB | 0 Downloads )
IMG_1186b.jpg ( 76 KB | 0 Downloads )
IMG_1187.JPG ( 87 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by psteinmayer on Jul 25th, 2018 at 10:19pm
Krags seem to be almost human in their love of various food.  Some will feed spitzers reliably... some won't.  Some are accurate with the 180 gr sp... some aren't.  Most will do well with the standard 220 gr rn "Ball" round, but not all.  I have a friend who practically shoots out the X at 200 yards shooting a 165 gr rn bullet... and I had a hard time holding the 9 ring with them!  The trick is to find what your particular Krag loves best... and then stick with it!

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Hamish on Jul 26th, 2018 at 4:54am
Thanks very much for the replies gents. I need to cast some 311365's and 311284's for it, but not till it cools off. 

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by psteinmayer on Jul 27th, 2018 at 10:07pm
FWIW, I usually shoot the NOE 311365 at 185 gr out of my Krag BR sporter rig.  Bob Wolfe cast them for me, sized to .310... and I can practically put two through the same hole at 200 yards!

My Vintage/Roosevelt Match Krag gets the standard Krag go-to of a 220 gr RN/40 gr IMR 4350... and I do alright with it!

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Hamish on Jul 28th, 2018 at 12:23am

psteinmayer wrote on Jul 27th, 2018 at 10:07pm:
FWIW, I usually shoot the NOE 311365 at 185 gr out of my Krag BR sporter rig.  Bob Wolfe cast them for me, sized to .310... and I can practically put two through the same hole at 200 yards!

My Vintage/Roosevelt Match Krag gets the standard Krag go-to of a 220 gr RN/40 gr IMR 4350... and I do alright with it!


Care to share your 311365 load?  (I'm concentrating on Unique and 2400 at the moment)

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by psteinmayer on Jul 28th, 2018 at 5:22pm

Hamish wrote on Jul 28th, 2018 at 12:23am:
Care to share your 311365 load?  (I'm concentrating on Unique and 2400 at the moment)


The NOE 311365 is gas-checked.  I can't tell you what the composition of the cast material, but Bob (madsenshooter) can tell you.  I load them with 19.0 grains of AA-5744 and a CCI-200 primer.  It's a nice mild load, and just lobs 'em in beautifully! 

I worked up this load based on the tables in Lyman's 47th edition.  Lyman's has good data, but sometimes, you have to cross-check their data (there has been some reports of incorrect data).   

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Hamish on Jul 28th, 2018 at 6:19pm
Thank you Paul.  I've got a pound of 5744 squirreled away and will give it a try.

Rich

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by madsenshooter on Jul 29th, 2018 at 12:00am
The bullets I cast for Paul are likely 25-27BHN copper hardened.  He's taking it easy on em!

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by psteinmayer on Jul 30th, 2018 at 12:53am
They certainly are beautiful bullets! 
IMG_20140327_170842805__800x472_.jpg ( 311 KB | 1 Download )

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Hamish on Jul 30th, 2018 at 4:28am
That copper enriched alloy just plain works!

Alright, I guess I'm going to have to get the pot out,,,,,.

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 30th, 2018 at 5:43am
What exactly is Copper Hardened Bullet Alloy and how do you 'do' it?

(Two things I need to learn today).

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Hamish on Jul 30th, 2018 at 5:22pm
br,

I'm on the road at the moment, but the short answer is to alloy 0.25-0.50% copper into the mix.  The easiest way is to order from Rotometals.  ( I will look the exact alloy up later) I use a mix of 48lb.s or so of 50/50 pistol range scrap and WW's with a 2 lb. ingot of Rotometal, then add a bit of solder as I go while actually casting.  Smelting in 50lb batches is easy on the old man,,,,.

Experimenting with adding copper actually goes back to at least the opening years of the 1900's.

That one quarter to one half of one percent copper presents multiple advantages.  Increased malleability and toughness under pressure and the ability of to withstand much higher velocities top the list.  When a cast Bullet of this alloy is smashed with a hammer it does not fragment and crack, it merely deforms.  Absolutely what you're looking for in a hunting bullet, yes?

The recent work done was a collaboration among several individuals over on Cast Boolits.  I will try to post links later also.

As Bob and Paul have discovered, the Cu alloy works very well from pedestrian speeds to very high velocities.  Honestly, I've gotten to the point that it's all I use in anything other than revolvers and semi automatic pistols.

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 30th, 2018 at 9:11pm
Hamish - Thanks!

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Hamish on Jul 31st, 2018 at 1:41am
Rotometals:   (You need to Login or Register

Number 1, RotoNickel, Super Tough, Grade 11, all can be used to add to your all if you get your copper percentage in the aforementioned percentages and have a fairly balanced alloy, if I'm not far off.  One caution:  there is zero advantage to a higher percentage of copper, and you can actually get too much. **With copper added, your bullets will continue to grow about a thousandth over the course of a couple of weeks to a month**

One fellow decided to run with 5% copper for a while and could not understand why his bullets kept growing for months!  MORE THAN ONE HALF OF ONE PERCENT HAS SHOWN ZERO ADDED BENEFIT, so,,,,,,,,.

The "Copper Hard", I believe could be most likely cut 50/50 with good range scrap.  If a fellow was OCD about knowing what was in his alloy, you *could* use it as is, but I'm not one of those folks.

A note on MY definition of "range scrap".  I've always run approximately 70/30 reclaimed commercial cast/jacketed off my clubs pistol range.

I just waded through a few of the old threads from 2012-13 and I dont think its worth posting, but if you're really interested in seeing evidence of how much resistance can be shown when some folks apple carts get upset, search "copper enriched" over on Cast Boolits.

I'm not promising anything but I'm going to nudge one of the biggest brains in the whole effort to post on this thread.


Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by butlersrangers on Jul 31st, 2018 at 2:49am
Years ago I did a lot of bullet casting, but, it was pure lead for CW Rifled-Muskets and Carbines and eventually, Rev. War Flintlock Muskets.
I was good at it, but, it was a necessary chore, like cleaning black powder arms. I didn't enjoy that part of the hobby.

Cast bullets with smokeless powder rifles is a relatively new area for me. 
I enjoy shooting and reloading a lot more than the 'Alchemy' and experimentation of Advanced Bullet casting. I prefer good and easy bullets, predictable results, and known successful 'recipes'. I guess, I am just lazy.

I sure do respect the guys that tinker and shoot cast bullets well, though! 

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Hamish on Jul 31st, 2018 at 11:51am
I hear you loud and clear!  I don't want a lot of mental gymnastics either.  Minimal fuss smelting, casting, and lubricating are a huge priority for myself also.

If so inclined, Roto-Metals will make alloy to your specification on demand! 8-)


Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by badgeredd on Jul 31st, 2018 at 8:40pm
Thank you Hamish for the link to this sight. A big Howdy to all of you and a Hello to Madsenshooter.

Madsenshooter and I discussed the copper enhancement of bullet alloy several years ago on another forum. I really don't know what his alloy is or which babbitt type he uses. I have primarily used the type 2 babbitt because I have quite a bit of scrap that my Dad collected while working on the railroad. I have used type 1, 3, and 11. My experimenting has convinced me that 1/4% copper in a balanced alloy gives me the best results. More copper gives little improvement GENERALLY. That said, anyone that has gotten really good results with more, I'd like to hear from you.

It is an imperfect way to alloy the way I do because I make some assumptions. One of said assumptions is that clip-on-wheel weight lead contains about 3 1/4% antimony. For many my way will work well. I use an alloy calculator to arrive at my alloys. I have found that if one "balances" the alloy, few if any problems occur. By balanced I mean the tin content equals (or nearly so) the sum of the copper content and the antimony content. MY best results have been with an alloy of about 2 1/2 % antimony, about 0.15 to 0.2% copper and about 2.7x% tin. I would caution that a significantly higher tin content that the sum of the antimony and copper will cause problems with bullets stabilizing at their hardness and size for quite a long time (in one case,over 6 months and the alloy was still unstable); while keeping the elements in the proportion I gave will allow rather good stability after 2 week after being cast. I water drop or heat treat my casting to achieve maximum hardness for high pressure loads but your experience may differ.
If anyone would like more information on my experiences with copper enhanced alloys, please ask. Thanks for reading my short (?) summation of my experience with copper in bullet alloy.

Edd

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by madsenshooter on Aug 1st, 2018 at 12:45pm
Edd experimented with it a lot more than I.  I've simplified the matter and just use a few certain types of lead based babbitts that have a specific gravity of around 10, when I can get em cheap.  I may add a little pure lead to get the weight I want, not much.  I don't know the specific amount of copper in the alloy I use.

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Local Boy on Aug 1st, 2018 at 2:49pm
Just in case your hunting babbits... ::)

Here's some nice information about using babbits for bullet casting as well as a website that sells babbit metal.

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Man, I sure do learn a lot from you guys on the KCA forum!!! :)

Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by Hamish on Aug 1st, 2018 at 4:19pm
br,

This just came up in the For Sale on Cast Boolits.  Rotometals price is $21 per pound plus shipping,,,,,,.  Might want to move on it.

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Title: Re: Two Things I Learned Yesterday
Post by madsenshooter on Aug 7th, 2018 at 5:20am
An interesting tidbit I learned about babbitt's came from a late 1930s patent.  Seems adding tellerium, a byproduct of lead smelting, makes a babbitt alloy that will work harden.  I size my bullets down in steps to give the bands a bit of that work hardening.  I don't know what all brands might have tellerium added though I suspect it became a standard practice to use it when the patent expired.  Work hardening babbitts may have played a significant role in the war effort.  Rich, genuine babbitts are tin based babbitts and have a very high percentage of tin.

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