Hello everyone and thank you for allowing me to join...
    I just registered after seeing this site...Considering I have a couple of US model 1898's and really enjoy shooting them I see there is a world if information here...
    I recently purchased a model 1898 carbine;(I believe it was a rifle cut down) and was hoping to get a little information on it. the S/N is 1946XX the cartouche says 1898 with the initials C.A. just forward it. It has the 1901 type rear sight, front and rear sling swivels (I apologize if I get any terms incorrect), and the 1903 Springfield front sight band and blade. The finish is about 70-75% and the bore is bright and shiny; one of the main reasons I bought it. Shoots Sierra 175gr MK like a dream!   I read that after the 1903 was adopted. The DCM and NRA cut down Krag rifles to carbine type to sell to the public. Is that accurate? I realize these don't command the value and desire of the "true" carbines but any information or history on them would be greatly appreciated. Thanks..

First, welcome to the site.  You are among friends here.

Having said that it would help us by having pictures of your Krag.

There is a photos section here where you can compare your guns to un-messed with guns.

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Here are some photos... I apologize for some not oriented correctly. Photobucket can be a real PITA sometimes....

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[URL=http://s850.photobucket.com/user/concretus/media/IMG_7

And More:

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And a few more.... As you can see. the handguard is a replacement. I show the original one there also...

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Looking at that crown I am not sure if it is an official NRA/DCM conversion. It is nicely done, I would be happy to own such a nice looking carbine, official or not.

A M1903 front sight on a Krag is always a dead giveaway of a cut down rifle.  But I like the rest of the rifle especially the rear sight.

I don't know how you removed the handguard and you may already know how to remove them but the correct way is to remove the rear sight and then slide the sight to the front sight and carefully lift it off.  This is more of an instruction to folks new to Krags lurking out on the net.

Don't ask me how I found out.  (sniff, sniff)

Thanks for the replies and feedback...

Don't go away, a lot more info will be forthcoming. I have an article published in Gun Digest about the "Last Krag" at the house. I think it was the NRA/DCM conversion, these will not be the valuable original carbines, but conversions done at the west coast armory to move the surplus Krags out faster. I can not remember all the details, whether the barrel was given a full crown and was the 1903 Springfield sight used. Other gunsmiths and kitchen table mechanics could have followed the pattern, to make a handier deer rifle out of the original rifles.
Others will reply soon with the details.

FredC wrote on Aug 7^th, 2018 at 4:46pm:

Don't go away, a lot more info will be forthcoming. I have an article published in Gun Digest about the "Last Krag" at the house. I think it was the NRA/DCM conversion, these will not be the valuable original carbines, but conversions done at SA (I think) to move the surplus Krags out faster. I can not remember all the details, whether the barrel was given a full crown and was the 1903 Springfield sight used. Other gunsmiths and kitchen table mechanics could have followed the pattern, to make a handier deer rifle out of the original rifles. Others will reply soon with the details.

I'm not going anywhere...

'concretus' - Welcome to the KCA Forum.

Your Krag, #194608, would have been assembled around April, 1899, as a U.S. model 1898 rifle.

The Stock is a cut-down rifle stock. It has a patch on the forearm tip, filling the lightening-channel, that was exposed when it was cut.

Your stock has been recycled a couple of times. It has three 'Proof" stamps. The foremost "Circled - Script P" was stamped when the Krag it was on was function tested for acceptance. The second "Circled - Script P" was applied when the stock was re-used on a Krag undergoing rebuilding. The plain "P" was applied over the original stamp, when a Krag was again subjected to function testing, likely around WW1.

Your Stock 'Cartouche' Has the letters "J.S.A." above a date. This stands for Joseph Sumner Adams, the shop foreman, where the acceptance inspections were done. I cannot make out the date.

You mentioned, your stock is marked with a "CA". I think, I can just see the edge of an "A" in one of your photos.

Frank Mallory wrote, (in "The Krag Rifle Story"), that around 1908, letters started being stamped on Krag stocks to identify the facility that had done cleaning and repair work.

BTW - Krags were in U.S. Service and National Guard use from 1894 to about 1919. Krag rifles remained even later on U.S. Ships. By WW1, the Army had relegated Krags to 'Training' use or secondary service. A lot of Krags were 'refurbished', during their service time. During the process, rifles were taken apart, parts were checked, refinished, and put together in new combinations of parts.

Something else to note: Your hand-guard appears to be of Italian walnut (which the U.S. used on some Krags). The hand-guard is the correct type for the model 1901 sight, that you have. However, the hand-guard has been 'stepped' for the 'sight-lever'. This should not be necessary, but, for some reason, your rear-sight sits LOW.

I wonder if your Krag has a replacement barrel, possibly made from a 1903 Springfield barrel?

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'Concretus' - Are there any markings on your Krag's barrel?

When commercial gunsmiths needed replacement barrels for Krags, they sometimes used surplus 1903 Springfield barrels. The barrel would be shortened at the breech, re-chambered, and notched for the Krag extractor.

Such barrels are smaller in diameter than a Krag barrel. They will have Armory initials, 'Ordnance Bomb' and a date, stamped on the barrel just behind the front-sight.

An example:

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There aren't any markings behind the front sight. I think it doesn't have the taper or profile of a 1903 Springfield...

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Thank you for the nice welcome and details!!

'Concretus' - Thanks for your additional pictures. Your barrel with the "P" (proof) marking is a Krag barrel.

I don't know why your rear-sight is setting so low in its hand-guard.

Attached, is a photo of my model 1899 Krag carbine, showing the carbine version of the 1901 sight with a rifle-style hand-guard.

Also a picture of a Krag stock with an "H.H." marking and Ordnance Dept. crest.

It is my belief that these markings date from a period of rebuild work just prior to WW1.

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Butlersrangers, any opinion on the crown as to whether it is a NRA/DCM conversion or a copy? I checked the Gun Digest article and Concretus' front sight and blade look correct. But I did not see a photo of the crown. I did correct the previous  post so people searching the web do not get wrong info on the armory that did the conversions.

"I don't know why your rear-sight is setting so low in its hand-guard." butlersrangers

I have the hand guard that came with the rifle when I bought it. it is similar to yours and not notched. There is a good size chunk out of it at the area of the receiver ring. I believe I have a photo of it in the thread. I found this reproduction one and installed it....I wished the original wasn't messed up....
   Thanks to you and all who provided feedback!  :)

butlersrangers wrote on Aug 8^th, 2018 at 4:30am:

I don't know why your rear-sight is setting so low in its hand-guard.

I suspect you're focusing on the handguard identified as a replacement. This one is really in a semi-finished state and consequently a bit taller than a finished one would be.

Thanks - I didn't know I was looking at two different hand-guards in your photos.

No worries....Eventually I'll look for one similar to the original one.

There's plenty enough wood on that replacement to allow taking the excess down to armory-finished contours and surface texture. A couple hours with files and sanding block, followed by a little wood dye and raw linseed, should do the trick.

Just be sure to avoid droopynose syndrome  :P -

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Okay, I see... I could remove material as far as I can depending how deep the rivets are recessed....

I'm always impressed by the wealth of knowledge on this forum and the willingness to help others!
Vic

'Concretus' - You can salvage your original hand-guard, with the missing wood.

Make a 'Dam' with sticky tape, like Masking Tape:

1. Make a wall, underneath, with tape on the inside of the hand-guard.

2. Make a wall at the rear edge, with tape.

3. Mix Acraglass and darken it with the powdered stain that comes in the kit.

4. With the hand-guard sitting level on a 'safe' surface, (not a family heirloom table), pour Acraglass mixture into the form, you have made.

5. It may take a couple of pours, allowing the Acraglass to setup in-between, to get adequate depth of Filler.

6. File and sand Acraglass to a pleasant contour.

This will not be an invisible repair, but, it will be strong and functional.

Someone with good woodworking skills could do a nicer wood patch.

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Does anyone have information on how the M1903 front sights were installed on the cut down rifles / aux carbines?  My buddies 1903 born on date Krag (that I posted about a couple of years ago) was cut down to a carbine length barrel w/ a carbine profile stock and has the M1903 front sight.  The rear of the base is cracked on one side and I am afraid if we try to fire it the front sight blade will... "Exit stage left" ( old cartoon reference for the young ones out there). I was thinking of silver soldering it but figure a total replacement would be better option. Since we have a number of the M1903 front sights from salvaged drill rifle barrels I have the parts.  I was hoping that someone has plowed the road before hand and I can leverage their knowledge.

Thanks,
Mark   

OK, I looked at the front sight under magnification and found the drift pin through the polished bluing and the repair to the rear of the sight band.  Removed the band and found a flat milled into the top of the barrel under the band.  Possible Carbine barrel that did not have a front sight soldered on?

Regardless, to install a M1903 front sight band will need a woodruff key on the flat to keep the band from rotating. Believe a 1903A3 band and key can be installed but would not look like the correct "vintage".  An A3 key fits under the 1903 band with the milled flat but the drift pin clearance is in the wrong place and would require cutting the key or drilling a new clearance notch. Anyone else tried to replace a front sight and have a key solution?

I had a cut-down Krag barrel that someone dovetailed a horrible front-sight on.

I enlarged the opening, of a 1903A3 front-sight band, to fit on the barrel. I improvised a 'key' from aluminum by Filing it to shape.

It fit in the dovetail and provided a 'key' for the sight-band. I notched the top of the Key to accept the 1903A3 sight's lower cross-pin.

Aluminum works good for this purpose, since it is easily shaped and conforms.

Only the 'Key' ends show and can be blackened with a felt-tipped marker.

(Admittedly, a 1903 front-sight looks nicer. Krag barrels have usually been 'stepped' by reducing diameter, to fit a 1903 sight. If there is a 'flat' in the sight area of the barrel you are working on, you can make a simple 'key' to size from aluminum).

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Thanks!  I have both M1903 and M1903A3 front sight bands.  Will try the aluminum woodruff key fabrication route for a 1903 band.  Did you hone the inside of the band to allow it to slip fit on the barrel? For future forum reference I will try to post a picture of the existing barrel flat.  The band I removed did not have a woodruff key installed but it did look like the interior had been polished or reamed to fit on the barrel as the depth of the key slot on the band was reduced.

Did you have to adjust the front sight blade to regulate the rear sight POA to POI or did yours have a carbine rear sight?

Mark

'Galvinator' - I 'honed' a rather beat-up 03A3 front-sight base to fit on the cut-down Krag's barrel. (This was a barreled/action that came with a model 1903 rifle rear-sight on it).

I pinned a 'shorter' commercial '03A3 blade in the base, because issue '03A3 blades were way too tall.

IIRC - The front-sight combination was still too high and the rear-sight was set at 200 yards, to zero shots to hit 50 yard 'point of aim'.

It was practical and looked far better than what came on the 'cut-down'. It cost me nothing but tinkering with reject parts.

My experience with sights on 'cut-down' Krag rifles - FWIW:

A snug fitting 1903 or '03A3 'banded' front-sight will probably stay put with an application of JB Weld glue, (especially if there is a flat, dovetail, or spline-groove on the barrel). It can later be removed with a bit of heat and a plastic mallet.

The height of the front-sight blade and rear-sight notch, (above the top of the barrel), and the distance between the front and rear sights (if the barrel taper changes sight height), will all influence the angle of the bore, in relationship to the target.

Different bullet weights and profiles will likely have different trajectories. This is solved by 'sighting-in' for specific loads and recording rear-sight adjustment. This allows return to  'load specific settings' at future shooting sessions.

An original model 1898 Krag rifle (30" barrel), front-sight blade 'top', will be approximately .665" to .675" above the top of the barrel.

A 'cut-down' Krag rifle will often have a barrel that is 22 to 24 inches in length. If fitted with a 1903 Springfield 'banded' front-sight with a commercial blade, the height of the blade above the original barrel surface, (not the stepped part), often is about .665" to .674".

Although the front-sight heights in the two examples seem the same, they are different.
The 'cut-down' rifle's front sight is 8 inches closer to the rear-sight.
Due to barrel taper and the 1903 band being on a machined step, a higher front-sight blade has been used for the measurement to be similar.

This changes the angle of the bore (downward) and likely the 'cut-down' will shot low.
Moving the rear-sight slide to 200 to 300 yards will likely have the 'cut-down' shooting close to the 'point of aim' at 50 yards.

Attached photos:  A model 1896 'cut-down' with a 1903 front-sight (blade height .675" above original barrel surface). 50 yard targets from two different loads. Rear-sight settings from 200 to 300 yards were used

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Guys, thanks for the info! Once I get a front sight back on the barrel (22") I will have a good starting point.

Again, thanks!

Mark ("The Galvinator")

'Mark' - An added thought:

If you make your front-blade height measurements in front of the 1903 base, (from the top of the turned or 'stepped' barrel section to the top of the blade, and stay in the range of .665" to .675"), it will probably correspond closely to the alignment of original sights on the 30 inch rifle barrel.

Will try that and let everyone know how it turns out.  Setting this up for CMP Vintage rifle matches (its a Cav carbine clone now) so wanted the sight markings as close to reality as possible.  Have to look at my Carbine rear sight and this rifle rear sight for the differences.

Mark

Krag carbine rear-sights sit closer to the barrel than their rifle version.

This requires that the carbine front blade also be shorter.

Which Krag rear-sight does your friend have now?

A carbine rear-sight will cost 5 to 10 times what the rifle version does. To find one 'loose' is getting difficult!

Also usefull to know:

Likely due to  barrel & action harmonics, 30 inch Krag rifles were reported to to show 'bullet drift' to the left out to about 900 yards, then it came back to zero and moved to the right.

(I imagine it was rifle barrel/action vibration that caused the bullet to depart the bore and be directed to the left and eventually 'bullet drift' brought the bullet back to neutral and ultimately to the right). "Horizontal Banana"!!!

Carbines showed less 'bullet drift' and it was always to the right.

Hey, tell me more about the Krag carbine - 'Clown Match'.

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His cut down rifle barrel is same length as the issue carbine barrel.  The rear sight is a 1901 rifle sight. The flat milled on the barrel is wider than the one on my original carbine barrel so my earlier thought that its a possible carbine barrel is incorrect.  I will post pictures of the barrel flat.  The M1903 sight band/base that I removed was milled to increase the ID to fit on the barrel. As a result the keyway is very shallow and no woodruff key was used. This probably contributed to the rear of the sight base cracking from recoil.  For the ease of front sight blade replacement/sizing I am thinking that a M1903A3 front sight base is a better choice for his rifle as it will never be mistaken for a legit carbine anyway.My plan is to reduce the OD of the barrel end to fit a stock M1903A3 front sight base  w/ the OEM woodruff key and retaining pin. 

Where are you from in MI??  I graduated from WMU many moons ago. Almost all of my relatives still live in the State.

Mark

Getting access to an industrial lathe to turn the muzzle end of the barrel down. It has a pass through that will allow me to bring the barrel through the center of the lathe.  Hoping that the lathe dimensions will let me leave the receiver on the barrel for the milling. However if it doesn't I will need to remove the barrel. Can one of you point me to a forum thread or anther source for removing and replacing Krag barrels and head spacing considerations?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark - Since, you are going to the effort of 'stepping' the muzzle area of this Krag barrel, I would recommend you install a 1903 Springfield front-sight base. That arrangement will simply look nicer than a '03A3 sight.

Buried somewhere on the KCA threads is material on making a barrel vise and an action wrench. IMHO - For your project, this would be overkill.

If I had access to a lathe, I would 'Chuck' the barrel (protected with some tape wraps) and support the barrel with the 'tail-stock' fixture at the bore's crown. (I'm sure some protective brass or plastic bushing could be improvised).

(The action could be left on the barrel, projecting out of the lathe).

I would turn things at a slow speed and use a File to form a step at the muzzle area, measuring my progress frequently.

p.s. I was born in Detroit and grew up and live in Oakland Co.

Go Broncos!

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Here is one recent thread:
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In this thread I did refer to a thread I started with some photos. If I remember correctly there is at least one more thread were another member posted photos of the tools he made and used successfully.

Butlersrangers mentioned in the above thread that all the barrel work is believed to have been done before final assembly. Tolerances being what they are some of Krag barrels will be very tight and other so much in order to line the sight up.
With the right lathe and a cat's head at either end of the spindle your work could be done without removing the barrel from the receiver.

Once again thanks for to everyone's input. Going to remove the action from the stock and try to complete the milling w/o removing the barrel.  Agree w/ using a M1903 sight base for the correct "vintage' look.  The barrel currently has a flat that i can use as a baseline for the new one.  i will monitor the milling to ensure I don't take the flat off before the diameter reduction is completed. Once I get the base installed we will take the "Carbine" to the range to work on calibrating the front sight using all the info provided earlier.

For Butlersrangers.  Go Bronco's!  Graduated in '77.  Spent a lot of time at Selfridge AFB (pre and post ANG days) as a dependent in my youth.  First 2 years of High school were at Mt Clemens (Battling Bathers!) then Dad was transferred to Otis AFB on Cape Cod.  My parents moved back to Mason after he retired for the second time. Mom still lives there.

Mark

Update on the front sight replacement.  The lathe I have access to is too deep for me to pass the barreled action through the body. Will have to remove the barrels to turn down the muzzle end.  I have to remove the barrel.  Now to find an action wrench. Think I can come up w/ a barrel clamp.

Mark

I attached a photo of the action tool that I used. There was another shop made tool posted in the last couple of years, but I did not find it.
It is the one on the left with the 2 different color screws and a little wider than 3/4 inch. I do not remember which clamp I put in the milling machine vice but I turned the other with the auto wrench in the photo. The  1/8 pin on the clamp was put up against the magazine box to insure the clamp did not slip and mark the action. Was not necessary in this case as the barrel was not real tight. The bushing on the right was used to bush for holding the finished barrel. I bored it out after the first use then needed to bush it to finish. The clamp in the middle was used on the barrel.

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Hole size in the action clamp?

I did not write the number down and it is hard to measure on the split clamp. Both of my Krags are assembled and I do not want to break them down to measure.
Thought of it later, do you want to borrow this one and the barrel clamp? Pay the shipping both ways and pad the clamps with paste board while you are using them so they do not get scarred up. We can send it today if you want. Send me a private message with your email address and we can work out the details if you want to do this.

That will work, will PM address. if the shipping cost is not on the lable let me know how much and I will include the reimbursement in the box when i ship them back.  You can ship FEDEX or UPS to my wife's work address for s reduced shipping cost.  She ships stuff worldwide at her job so they come everyday.

Thanks again, Mark!

Will send tomorrow FedEx to your wife's business place.

You do have a large vice and Crescent wrench?

I have lots of vices (and a wench)!  ::) (I do have a vise in the garage).

Yes I have a large machinists bench vise and multiple large crescent wrenches, though your wrench looks more like what I would call a square jawed monkey wrench. Have one of those also.

Mark

I am pretty sure a 24 inch crescent will do possibly a 18 inch also. My large Crescent wrenches are outside with the ranch tools. The "auto wrench" was used since it was handy and worked fine. If a cheater had been necessary the auto wrench would have had to been replaced with a Crescent as they can stand the extra torque.
We initiated the FedEx pick up which will happen tomorrow. Will email the tracking #.

Butlersrangers you are just too funny. Not sure how much torque your wench can develop. I have a wife than needs help with pickle jars.

Apparently this is one of the tight barrel to receiver rifles!  Have the barrel clamped, receiver block installed and carded to protect the finish) and have a wrench w/ a 4' cheater bar on it. All it wants to do is turn the barrel in the bushing. Full disclosure inn case I am being a moron I did not disassemble the magazine parts from the rifle as it did not look like it would make a difference. Put Kroil on the barrel to receiver seam and letting it set.

Mark

You might give Chuck Moline a call at Warpath Vintage. 
Vic

Barrel is off!!  ;D ;D

I tried my M1903 barrel clamp and it held the Krag barrel perfectly. FredC's receiver clamp worked great. Now to turn the muzzle down, install the M1903 front sight band and reinstall the barrel.

Mark

Front sight base is on. He didn't have to turn the barrel down very much.    I will take pictures during the barrel install and post.  Used the M1903 front sight as planned.