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Message started by butlersrangers on Sep 18th, 2018 at 7:05pm

Title: More on this soon!
Post by butlersrangers on Sep 18th, 2018 at 7:05pm
I know you all want one of these!

(photo compliments of Paul Breakey, Esq. - MAAC member and Superintendent of "Michigan Pattern Room").
PBr-7-ed.jpg ( 139 KB | 1 Download )

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by butlersrangers on Sep 19th, 2018 at 2:50am
Anyone recognizing this?
PBr-3.jpg ( 191 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by Knute1 on Sep 19th, 2018 at 3:47am
Well, if I can spell it right, it is a thing-a-ma-bob. You take the one end with the fixed, but adjustable, plunger and you set it in the, well you know. And then you take the other end with the spring-loaded plunger, pull the tab to bring it back and set it in the other end of the, well you know. Let go of the tab. Wallah, it is now set in place and ready to do whatever you started out doing. Next slide please.

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by butlersrangers on Sep 19th, 2018 at 3:52am
Knute - You are getting warm ....
PBr-2.jpg ( 183 KB | 1 Download )

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by Knute1 on Sep 19th, 2018 at 4:08am
I'm thinking something for the Navy. Then again something for trench warfare where the rifle is held in place right above the trench and can be manipulated from below out of the line of enemy fire.

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by butlersrangers on Sep 19th, 2018 at 5:01am
Invented in Boston, used in many military, naval, and educational programs .....
attachment_points_001.jpg ( 180 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by FredC on Sep 19th, 2018 at 1:41pm
How many guesses allowed?
The second photo made me think of a gun mount, whaling harpoon or ship to ship line throwing? Last photo shows a Krag from the bottom.
Photo 2 does not resemble a Krag trigger guard strange hook near the screw.
Photo 3 Is that the same receiver? if so it is highly modified. The barrel has a hex near the receiver, to make it easy to change? Sight has marks for elevation that would not be compatible with a harpoon or line throwing. Sometimes used as a regular gun?
Combination harpoon and deck gun, that is my guess.

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by Capt. Frank on Sep 19th, 2018 at 2:17pm
Side handle, for when the gun gets too hot. That is my answer and I am sticking with it.

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by Parashooter on Sep 19th, 2018 at 3:57pm
??? Ref. from   (You need to Login

Below; image from the pamphlet " The Sub-target Gun Machine"
of "The Sub-target Gun Co." -Hight St., Boston, Mass. U.S.A.

  (You need to Login

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by Local Boy on Sep 19th, 2018 at 4:02pm
Part of the Sub Target practice machine.

Used for marksmanship Training.

Page 196 of the Krag Rifle Story

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by butlersrangers on Sep 19th, 2018 at 4:07pm
Paul Breakey bought this altered Magazine Lee-Enfield at auction.

It was mistakenly 'billed', as being equipped, "for attachment to an Artillery Piece". (Paul believed this until I showed him his rifle's actual application).

Paul said: "The gun auction also featured a similarly equipped Turkish Mauser".

The contrivance could be fitted to most service rifles, including the Krag and 1903 Springfield.
PBr-5.jpg ( 351 KB | 1 Download )

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by butlersrangers on Sep 19th, 2018 at 8:13pm
Parashooter and Local Boy are very smart young men.

Thank you Parashooter for including the link to rifleman.org.uk. If that is new resource to a KCA member, there is some really good stuff on that site!

About four years ago, a KCA member had a Krag in .22 caliber. The cocking-piece on his Krag was peculiar and led to a lot of conjecture.

It was eventually realized to be a part of the cable-linkage used on the 'Boston' version of the Cummings Sub-Target Gun Machine.

(The British version, made by Wilkinson Sword Ltd., under license, used an electric-switch, battery and wires, that controlled a solenoid).

Mr. Breakey's rifle is a Magazine Lee-Enfield and retains the bronze fixture that anchored it to a (Wilkinson style) Sub-Target Rifle Machine. The extra holes in the wood stock likely were anchor points for an electric switch.

I appreciate Paul Breakey sharing knowledge and providing photos for the KCA Forum of his rifle and this very rare fixture.

(p.s. Paul's magazine has a strange 'keyhole' opening on the right side. This is  likely for the Hiscock-Parker .22 caliber magazine mechanism and probably not correct for this .303 caliber rig).


PBr-1.jpg ( 72 KB | 1 Download )

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by Parashooter on Sep 19th, 2018 at 8:33pm
For more background, in a familiar place, see   (You need to Login

How soon we forget, eh?

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by butlersrangers on Sep 20th, 2018 at 5:24am
I have three beliefs regarding the Cummings Sub-Target Gun Machine:

1. No one is now alive, who used and practiced on one.

2. Somewhere in the world, (in a closet, basement, attic, or obscure corner of a military base, naval-yard, retired armory/arsenal, military academy, or New York - Public School), there is a S.T.G.M., in pieces or whole. Likely, no one there has a clue as to what it is or its original function.

3. If enough gun enthusiasts are aware, one day it will be found!

At the present, I am just happy to know that at least one fixture equipped rifle survives and what the fixture looks like in detail.

Attached:

Photos of Cummings 1910 advertisement and Wilkinson catalog.

Machine sketches with rifle 'fixture' and its location marked. (Note - First sketch shows early cable arrangement, later system used linkage). Last sketch shows Wilkinson battery powered solenoid and wire system.


STGM-1910_002.JPG ( 82 KB | 0 Downloads )
Wilkinson_catalog_STRM.jpg ( 91 KB | 0 Downloads )
strm-krg-mech-ed_001.jpg ( 99 KB | 0 Downloads )
strm-krg-knob_link_003.JPG ( 55 KB | 1 Download )
Wilkinson_-_STRM-ed.jpg ( 223 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by butlersrangers on Sep 20th, 2018 at 6:14am
I cringe when I envision all the adjustments that had to be made on this device.

Its price of around $500 (with you supplying the rifle and the rifle being 'ruined' by modifications), in the early 1900's, is sobering.

Cheaper systems, other methods, and .22 caliber training rifles on indoor ranges, likely forced the Sub-Target Rifle Machine's demise.
hollifield_practice_rod.jpg ( 201 KB | 0 Downloads )
Hollifield1915.jpg ( 62 KB | 0 Downloads )
training_krag2_003.jpg ( 472 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: More on this soon!
Post by butlersrangers on Sep 20th, 2018 at 8:22pm
Further Observations:

Seeing the hollow underside of the tin-plated/bronze fixture, attached to P. Breakey's Magazine Lee- Enfield rifle, is enlightening.

It shows how the fixture was quickly attached and released from its 'carrier' on the STRM.

The 'mounting points', that I have circled in the attached photo are for mounting the 'Head', which contains the sub-target holder, marking needle, and elaborate universal-joints and rod, that move in unison with the rifle, as it is aimed at a second distant target.

There are three pairs of mounting points: Top - for offhand, Middle - for kneeling & sitting (in use in photo), and Bottom - for prone.

(p.s. - The rifle, when locked into place on the 'skeletonized carrier' of the STRM, was not weightless.
The counter-balance 'globe' was to offset any added weight of the fixture and carrier apparatus. The operator only had to deal with the actual weight of the rifle).
PBr-7ed.jpg ( 215 KB | 0 Downloads )
Wilkinson_-_A_J__Comber-ed.jpg ( 142 KB | 0 Downloads )
Cummings-2.jpg ( 134 KB | 0 Downloads )

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