Hi there,
  I'm looking at buying this 1899 Krag carbine but I'm stumped by the double cartouche.  Appears to have the standard script JSA dated 1900 with the box letters JSA on top of it (see pic).  Was this a rearsenal technique, school carbine, etc???  Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark

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Mark,

Welcome to the wonderful world of Krags and the Krag Collector's Association!

You have an interesting variation on the 1899 Krag carbine cartouche. Frank Mallory's reference The Krag Rifle Story states that the Block lettered JSA initials ( which represent the firearm inspector J S Adams) was used on Krag 1899 carbines. It appears that your JSA block letters were placed over the script JSA which were placed on all Krag rifle and carbine stocks made from June 1894 through the end of production in 1904.

If your stock was an early production 1899 carbine, there may have just been an error in putting the wrong cartouche on initially and then added the block lettered JSA over top. It could also have been an earlier carbine stock already stamped that had the block letters added when the 1899 carbine was initially built.

When the stocks were replaced after initial military use, the Springfield arsenal would not have added any further cartouches. They are only placed on the stock when first built.

So, we need more expert opinions on your carbine.
It would help to know the serial number of your carbine and we'd love to see more pictures if you have them.

Good luck and enjoy!

Thanks so much for your response and information.  Yes, I'm not a Krag expert at all, but in all my 40 year of collecting, have never seen this before.  I attached two more pics that I hope help.  Rear sight is C marked.  I think the only non-stock item would be the sling swivels.  Stock was cleaned a bit but I can live with it.  Bore is awesome.
Thanks again,
Mark

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Can you post some pictures of the rear sight? You may have a somewhat less common variation of a carbine rear sight. Get top and side pictures so we can see markings. Looks like a nice 1899 carbine overall though. These are the most common Krag carbines but still very desirable. Good find!

Per your request.  Some pics of the rear sight.

Mark

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'markthenav' - Welcome to the KCA forum! You have a very interesting model 1899 carbine.

Your Krag carbine, #226507 (if I am reading it correctly), was built around August to September, 1899, at the beginning of 1899 carbine production. It was in the initial run of 5,150 model 1899 carbines.

As first assembled, your carbine would have been fitted with the model 1898 carbine rear-sight. Very few model 1899 carbines retained this 'three sight-notch' rear-sight, because the 2,200 fps cartridge was abandoned, due to bolt-lugs cracking.

Most of these early model 1899 carbines were then fitted with a model 1896 carbine rear-sight and a rifle hand-guard.

Later, most were updated and fitted with a model 1901 or model 1902 carbine rear-sight.

You have a model 1902 carbine rear-sight, now. Only about 1,000 model 1902 carbine sights were made.

Your Italian walnut model 1899 carbine stock, with its 1900 'cartouche', possibly is not the original stock on your carbine. With all the rear-sight changes, it is likely your carbine was rebuilt or 'overhauled', a time or two.
It seems apparent to me, Springfield Armory saw fit to have Joseph Sumner Adams inspect and put a new 'cartouche' on your stock. The style of ('new') cartouche appears to be like those used from 1906 to 1915 on School and Constabulary rifles.

Now the best part - If your serial number is 226507, your model 1899 carbine is documented in the SRS data, collected by Franklin Mallory - (#226507 - model 1899 carbine - 02/19/1936 - Second Corps Area).

Weren't the school and Constabulary Krags mostly marked with the J. F. Coyle - "J.F.C."- cartouche?

Per Mallory: J.F. Coyle, J.S. Adams, and Charles Valentine - (C.V.)

I have no clue as to percentages for each inspector.

'markthenav' - Nice model 1902 carbine sight.

Like yours, mine has the 'clamping-screw' knob 'dimpled' for the .30-03 rimless cartridge head.
These screws were surplus, when the 1903 'rod-bayonet' Springfield was abandoned, (around 1905).

They were apparently used to complete and/or rebuild Krag 1902 sights.

Thanks. I know there's a lot of confusion with these cartouches. Leaves the door wide open for speculation.

I've got one of those 1902 carbine sights, also, on one of my 1899s. That leaves about 998 left out there somewhere! I wonder how many others are known in collector's hands.

'Whig' - What type of  knob is on your 1902 carbine sight?

My 1902 Carbine sight knob is, I believe, the original one slotted to accept the cartridge rim.

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'Whig' - You have a very nice model 1902 carbine sight.

Some model 1902 sight trivia:

Have you noticed on most 1902 sights, (RIFLE AND CARBINE), how the lines and numerals are slightly deeper near the eye-piece and shallower near the front pivot? This must be a result of how the leaf was supported, as the markings were 'rolled on', in the manufacturing process.

On a limited sample of four legitimate 1902 carbine sights (out of 1,000):

2 - Yours and markthenav's have the "Sgt. Peep" swing-up aperture (and two don't).

4 - have coarse serrations.

3 - have the 1903 knob.

1 - has the "C" stamped on the left-side of its base.

Such things will drive men mad!

(Attached photos - two views of my 1902 carbine sight and two views of a rare variant seen on the internet).

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This post from June 2012 shows a really nice 1902 carbine sight with the "c" stamped on the right side and the original simple non-dimpled slotted knob like mine. So, there is another example of a this rare sight that looks all original.

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Also, here's another view of mine.

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You have the 'Real McCoy', seldom seen, but, often duplicated (faked).

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Thanks for everyone's input and responses. The rear sight discussion was quite educational!  Is $1,000 to 1,100 a fair price for one of these carbine's today?  Bore is excellent.
Thanks again.
Mark

I don't think you are being taken for that price range. The lower the better but that's a great carbine. It might be the lighting but the hand guard does look like it's darker than the stock but that's not a problem.

Good carbines like this really are solidly selling for $1,200 to $1,500 as far as I've seen.

A good bore does make it worth more.

Remember about price with firearms- you never pay too much- you might just be buying it a couple years too early!

In a few years, these nice carbines will be fetching $2,000.

The price quoted seems fair.

Was I correct about your serial number?

Peculiar 'cartouche', SRS 'hit', comparatively rare rear-sight, and excellent bore may add to value for serious collector.

Hand-guard looks to be American black walnut. Stock is Italian walnut.