Hello Krag Friends,

I recently purchased this 1898 "Short Rifle" and thought I would post it here for viewing and comments.

The seller said that he had acquired several of these that appeared to have been cut down by Vet organization to same length as an '03 Springfield (Perhaps for uniformity?????) Seller said that he had these re-crowned and that the barrels are decent, serviceable and the the rifle functions as it should. I don;t think he fired any of them.

I have a long rifle and liked the short rifle (Being an '03 collector), the price was decent, so I purchased it.

It is an 1898 with serial 472932.    (You need to Login gives a year of manufacture as 1903, which seems to match the cartouche.

It is at my dealer, waiting for me to return home Next October.
Barrel length is 23". It is my intention to have it sent to my gunsmith to have a correct front sight installed (S&S) and also have the sharp edge rounded off......If anyone objects, please chime in and include reason.

It has the 1902 Rear sight. My dealer tells me that the rifling is "good". His words. Won;t be until October when I can actually inspect.

Anyway....here is is.....

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Some more pics.

I would like to be able to install a bayonet on this rifle. I would machine out the inside of a cheap, but decent bayonet ring to fit over the barrel. But I think that the measurement from the front edge of the upper band to the muzzle is too short, even though the barrel is 23" long. Which only tells me that the OAL length of this stock is more than the 38" of the PC/Short Rifle. Am waiting on measurement from my dealer. If true, if i have a correct front sight installed back the correct distance from the muzzle, I "could" file back the nose of the stock, reshape and reinstall the upper band so a bayonet would properly attach. How often would I need or use a bayonet....probably never....but I would like for it to attach.

Thoughts....opinions, suggestions? 

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Additional...

Am waiting for my dealer to provide some measurements that I asked for.

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Measurement from muzzle to edge of upper band

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Goodness.  Please don't ruin a bayonet just to fit this Krag.  The bayonet will be around longer than you and will be sold after you tire of it or after your demise to some dude who will buy it from a picture on the 'net and find out it does not fit his rifle. At any rate the gun and bayonet will become seperated in the future.

Send the gun to the CMP and have a new one spun on to it and do a wood restoration.  Or you can have the muzzle turned down since it is already buggered.  You can get a replacement forearm piece and splice it in if the stock has been cut back.

Just my opinion but I try to live by the hippotomus oath when it comes to Krags or any mil rifle for that matter.  Doctor do no harm.

I think you will have a nice shooting rifle when you are done with your gun smithing for this poor cut-down Krag. It will have no collector value as a cut down sporterixed rifle but you should, hopefully, get lots of fun shooting it!

Maybe, if you get hooked on the 30-40 platform and enjoy your Krag, you will catch the fever and look for and invest in a military correct Krag that will be the envy of all of your shooting buddies.

I would actually have the muzzle re-crowned to look more like a real Springfield Armory crown. That crown job makes me shiver.

Hopefully the bore will turn out to be nice like promised. Good luck!

I also agree with Culpeper that the muzzle should be altered to fit the bayonet if you must. Don't ruin the harmless bayonet. It never did anything to you! Keep it intact for the next Krag enthusiast.

He is already hooked as he states he has a long rifle!!! This looks like a fun shooter project and no damage is done to an original so have a "blast" (pun intended) I tend to agree though about altering the bayonet though. One draw back would be that after you are gone and your good intentions forgotten some one could pass this off or mistake it for a bayo for the 26" Krag and gouge or over pay for it.

Just working on the outside of that crown will make it a lot better. The only book I read on gunsmithing told how to cut and crown a barrel without a lathe. Forty years ago so I forgot some of the details. Cant even remember the name or author.
On the inside portion of the crown he would chamfer the bore with a 45 degree bit then use some brass ball shaped laps in a brace (Before power drills were common) to work it out. On the OD I think the procedure was to file then sand it to shape.

A couple of quick questions, when the CMP was handing out all those Krags in the thirties, they did not come with the bayonets did they? How did a person get them?

To me, the answer is simple and totally obvious. Replicate a "school gun". The 23" barrel is like nothing else - cut it to 22" with a proper crown, and reduce the area ahead of the front sight base to take a standard bayonet. You have harmed nothing but will end up with something believable. Stock work should not be difficult, though you might have to plug the lightening groove - but that would be "correct" for that length barrel. Totally "win-win".

Thanks for the comments.

From the measurements, I think that the stock may be longer than 38"......standard OAL of the PC/School/Short rifle stock. Even if i were to have a new 22" barrel installed, a bayonet would not attach as it would be shorter than the 23" the barrel is now. Besides, there is a long waiting list to sedn something to CMP.....I am already on it, for something else.

Also, the repro barrels do not have the correct thread on the rear sight mounting screw holes.

Would you still be upset if I used a beater bayonet? Or purchased a replacement Guard to modify, rather than having the existing barrel turned down? Wouldn't that entail removing the barrel in order to mount it into a milling machine? I will discuss that with my gunsmith.

Forend replacement splice? Why would I remove the whole forend on this rifle? Actually, I will not see this rifle until next October, when I come home. The idea was to have my 01-FFL ship it to the gunsmith to have the front sight installed and contour the muzzle (It's already been cut down and re-crowned.....Not by me), then have Gsmith ship back to my 01-FFL so that I can do the paperwork when I come home. Why not wait til I come home, you may ask?.....Because I will only have 30 days and I have stuff to do. Besides, Gsmiths aren't know to be fast. He may not be done by time I have to return overseas and he may not be willing to hold onto the rifle for another year until I can come home again to get it.

Actually, I have a barreled receiver on the way, which I am going to have to find a stock for, so I might just do the barrel turning for the bayonet on that....or the separate stripped receiver and barrel that I have for another build. Have to find a stock fot it, so I could do the forend splice thing on that and set it up to accept a bayonet.

I appreciate the comments.

I received enough criticism from the M1 Garand crowd "Purists" when I had a BM59 built, about "destroying" a piece of history.

I was thinking along that line. Is it possible to turn down the muzzle to accept the bayonet ring without removing the barrel. Having to go that far would add more expense.

I am not at home to attempt any of this, myself. I will need to send it to a competent gunsmith so I can enjoy the rifle when I come home in October.


Dick Hosmer wrote on Jan 1^st, 2019 at 6:39am:

To me, the answer is simple and totally obvious. Replicate a "school gun". The 23" barrel is like nothing else - cut it to 22" with a proper crown, and reduce the area ahead of the front sight base to take a standard bayonet. You have harmed nothing but will end up with something believable. Stock work should not be difficult, though you might have to plug the lightening groove - but that would be "correct" for that length barrel. Totally "win-win".

Understand about altering the bayonet. Was going to try to find a beater bayo and fix it up.  Am just trying to keep expense of turning the front of the muzzle.....unless that can be done WITHOUT removing the barrel.


Whig wrote on Dec 31^st, 2018 at 10:11pm:

I also agree with Culpeper that the muzzle should be altered to fit the bayonet if you must. Don't ruin the harmless bayonet. It never did anything to you! Keep it intact for the next Krag enthusiast.

Received measurement fo stock OAL from my dealer.......it is 39 9/16 Inches long.....

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Jason60chev wrote on Jan 1^st, 2019 at 9:21am:

... I received enough criticism from the M1 Garand crowd "Purists" when I had a BM59 built, about "destroying" a piece of history.

The folks on this forum are really great!  Most helpful, friendly and at times humorous.  Like a family, well some families.  Ha.  I'm always impressed with their knowledge.  When it comes to everything Krag, this is the goto place.

Yeah, as to the Garand forum.  You can guess what I think about that attitude.  BTW the BM59 is a really neat rifle.
Vic

I agree about the "Purists" too!  Some of these so called "Purists" are the same guys who blow hard about having their Garand be "As Manufactured" with matching numbers and absolutely museum quality finish... something we all know is practically impossible (Garand parts are not serialized... they are assembly numbers, and most issued arms go through some type of arsenal rebuild at one point or another).

Certainly, yes. Many are expecting pristine, unmolested, un rebuilt, fresh from the armory floor examples for the price one would pay for a complete mixmaster. True, M1 parts are not serialized, but there were enough revisions that, if one were to take the time to study, that a representative rifle from a particular month/year could be assembled. I did that with a March 1944 rifle, recently, but getting the wear pattern of all those parts to match....UGH!!!! Also, compound the "matching" parts philosophy to the fact that Springfield Armory worked on the Last In-First Out inventory system. So, it is quite possible for a later rifle to have earlier and mixed parts if those parts bins hadn't been replenished. Of course, they were making rifles to fight a World War....NOT for future collectors.

I also recently assembled my most difficult M1 (Yes this reply is off topic from Krags).....an All Beretta Danish Contract rifle. Trying to locate ALL "PB" marked parts......yes, they were all marked.....was a chore and a little on the expensive side. But whata neat example for my M1 collection.

Jason60chev wrote on Jan 1^st, 2019 at 9:21am:

I received enough criticism from the M1 Garand crowd "Purists" when I had a BM59 built, about "destroying" a piece of history.

It's not that most of us are purists (Okay, maybe there are a few that are) but most of us are shall we say semi-purists.  The Garand guys have their flavor of the disease and we have ours.  One can not just run out and just get parts anywhere for a Krag.  They have to be stripped off an existing gun.  I think most guys here will agree restaint and caution for the future krag owners is the word of day.  I have bubba'd Krags that I have taken out of circulation and would have no problem turning a muzzle.  I presumed your stock had been cut back a bit when they lopped off the front of your barrel.  So if your stock is intact please do not cut on it.  There are too many "carbines" from the early 20th century floating around.

Find the crappiest bayonet you can get for twenty bucks and open the hole up.  But if you could, though, stamp some place on it that it was modified or changed as a warning to future purists and the unsuspecting.  However, I think Mr. Hosmer has the correct solution.

Those Garand guys don't have a leg to stand on. >:(  You cannot swing a dead cat without hitting some site that sells trigger guards and assemblies.  They are common.  On the other hand no one is making new op rods yet some dweebs insist on cutting them  short.  I'll shut up and color when someone starts making op rods.

I know your pain about being overseas.  Did that for years on RAID and VOSS programs.

Soooooooo.  When do we get to shoot that BM-59?

psteinmayer wrote on Jan 1^st, 2019 at 4:34pm:

I agree about the "Purists" too!  Some of these so called "Purists" are the same guys who blow hard about having their Garand be "As Manufactured" with matching numbers and absolutely museum quality finish... something we all know is practically impossible (Garand parts are not serialized... they are assembly numbers, and most issued arms go through some type of arsenal rebuild at one point or another).

Don't forget battlefield recovered guns.  They put them in a pile and put together everything that was not battle damaged and handed off it to the next guy in line.

I love my 1899 Constabulary Krag school rifle. Fast handling, light and bayonetable. This is what the bidness end looks like. It came to me missing the screw but its got one now. It also has a nice 1899 bayonet along with my faux Bowie bayonet.
‘Remember the Maine”

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If the op’s rifle bbl is cut and the stock is cut the originalness of the rifle is gone and can’t be recovered. Given enough money, time and with wood and gunsmithing skills a rifle can be made to look as it did when it left the factory or 50 years later. But it will never be ‘original’ again. School Krags were built from 30 inch bbled rifles nobody wanted. They couldn’t give them away. While I would never have holes drilled in a ‘03 or krag rcvr or shorten an original bbl once the deed is done you can’t undo it. I would suggest to the op to do the least amount of new damage and replicate a school rifle with his newly aquired altered Krag. Turn the bbl for the Krag bayonet, properly crown it, mount a correct sight and move the bayonet mount to the correct location. Shoot it often, repeat as necessary. They’re neat firearms.

Jason has all the ingredients to replicate a school rifle.

That is my intention. Install correct front sight. The barrel is about an inch too long and the stock is about 1 1/2" too long. Think making it a School rifle would work out just fine. Are you suggesting leaving the barrel at 23"? I have thought about that, too, just to keep costs down. From the measurements I have, the Upper band/Bayo lug will still need to be moved back some to mount a bayonet.


Quote:

I would suggest to the op to do the least amount of new damage and replicate a school rifle with his newly aquired altered Krag. Turn the bbl for the Krag bayonet, properly crown it, mount a correct sight and move the bayonet mount to the correct location. Shoot it often, repeat as necessary. They’re neat firearms.

I work with PTDS aerostat.

Where do you live? I live in Tampa. Would love to let you shoot the BM59.......unless Congress or Florida passes more stoopid laws.......UGH!!!!

Tomorrow they open the flood gates.


Quote:

I know your pain about being overseas.  Did that for years on RAID and VOSS programs. Soooooooo.  When do we get to shoot that BM-59?

Leaving the barrel a tad long will 'signal' to future collectors exactly what it is. (A good thing).

Not a bad idea and I can still shoot and attach a bayonet and enjoy it all I want.


butlersrangers wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2019 at 12:52pm:

Leaving the barrel a tad long will 'signal' to future collectors exactly what it is. (A good thing).

I also agree that leaving the bbl a tad too long would identify it as a modern rebuild not an original. Gives you an inch more sight radius too. It’s not hard to cut back the stock to move the bayonet mount to the correct spot. I did that with my 21 inch bbl ‘03 build.

FWIW - List Franklin Mallory compiled of sales of 1,385 "school rifles" to various U.S. military schools.

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It’s a shame that nobody thought to write down the serial numbers of what rifle went where. A simpler time.

Western Military Academy, (Alton, Ill.), purchased Krag short rifles in 1908 and 1912 for a total of 180 rifles.

Although, the Academy closed years ago, I found some neat period photos on a Western Military Academy Facebook Page.

The 1898 and 1904 newspaper photos appear to show 'trapdoor' Springfield rifles.

The entrenchment photo with 'black powder blank firing' definitely shows Krags. (I suspect the bores experienced a lot of neglect).

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Northwestern Military Academy (Chicago) purchased 120 'short' Krags in 1908.

In 1911, the academy moved to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, and was renamed Northwestern Military & Naval Academy. In 1995 the school merged to become St. Johns - Northwestern Military Academy, which is still in operation.

Northwestern M.A. in the early 1900's was involved in promoting military use of the bicycle, 'scout cars' and armored cars. Some 1915 vintage photos reveal Northwestern cadets with short Krags.

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Am a Citadel grad, myself....Band Company, Class of 1984. During my tenure, Rifle Companies used the M14. The Summerall Gard Drill Squad used 1903s. We, in Band company, when issued rifles for walking punishment tours, were given 1903s.

Great Photos!!!!  No one smiling!!!!!!

Photo" A Long, Long, time ago...In a Galaxy Far, Far Away.....


butlersrangers wrote on Jan 4^th, 2019 at 4:20am:

Western Military Academy, (Alton, Ill.), purchased Krag short rifles in 1908 and 1912 for a total of 180 rifles. Although, the Academy closed years ago, I found some neat period photos on a Western Military Academy Facebook Page. The 1898 and 1904 newspaper photos appear to show 'trapdoor' Springfield rifles. The entrenchment photo with 'black powder blank firing' definitely shows Krags. (I suspect the bores experienced a lot of neglect).

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