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Message started by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 1:07am

Title: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 1:07am
I have just acquired a second 1894 Krag rifle that has me curious. This was bought at an auction and I knew it just looked too good to pass up. Got it for under $1400! The details of this piece are fascinating. All of the parts are original and in great shape for an 1894 unmolested rifle except for two things. The ramrod is new and the stock is a fantastic reproduction, almost exactly, of an original 1894 stock.

I disassembled the rifle and examined everything carefully. And you can see in many of the pictures, there is a nice even patina on the metal consistent with an early 1894 Krag, serial number 1631. Everything is as it should be for an 1894 rifle including all of the serial numbers matching on the receiver, side plate and magazine cover. The bolt, front barrel band, rear sight, hand guard, butt plate, muzzle and extractor are all correct and look like they have been together for a long time. I don’t think that this is a rebuild from a pile of correct parts.

But, someone has fabricated an almost exact copy of a M92 stock that has such perfect lines and tolerances, it looks like it was an arsenal fabrication. It definitely is a retro because it is in like new condition and has no proof mark or cartouche. There are only two very small differences I have found. One is, there is no cross pin through the stock in front of the rear barrel band and second is that there is no metal insert inside the stock that the threaded end of the ramrod screws into. The inside of the stock is even correct by having cut outs for the hand guard clips but no lightening cuts. There is even the nice “Tulip” cut out for the muzzle end of the ramrod and the beveled end in front of the rear barrel band. Someone knew what they were doing. The hand guard is slightly darker and original. It is not new.

(Continued on next post...)

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 1:09am
So, I am at a loss to explain where this stock came from and how it was mated with this Model 1892 rifle. I have tried to get info from the auction house but they have not responded. I’d like to trace the provenance if I can.

I have also shown the comparison of the reproduction ramrod to my original one from my other M92 Krag. The dimensions are almost exact but there are slight differences in comparison such as the head and threads being different. It has a bright blue finish. Needs about 100 years of patina to match! I have wiped the stock and hand guard down well with linseed oil.

So, if anyone has any ideas about this rifle or has seen a reproduction stock as nice, I’d love to hear about it. I have no idea how to value this rifle but I know it’s a keeper. Also, the bore has no pitting and looks almost unused. Only very slight wear of the lands and grooves. Thanks for any input.

I have a few pages of pictures:


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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 1:10am
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 1:10am
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 1:11am
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 1:12am
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by butlersrangers on Jan 27th, 2019 at 6:12am
That is a very nice reconstruction of an early U. S. Krag!

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Kerz on Jan 27th, 2019 at 10:00am
Whip
What very nice rifle.  I certainly enjoyed the in-depth look from the pictures.  Hope you can track down some history from previous owner.  So is it possible that the wood was surplus NOS from a period many years ago?
Vic

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 10:51am
I don't think it is but I just am at a loss to understand where it came from and who made it. If the proof mark was on it, It could convincingly be seen as original.

I'm hoping one of the seasoned collectors has some helpful info as to the origin of this kind of reproduction.

I'd also like to know where a value would be for this. I'm sure it's more than the sum of the parts.

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by butlersrangers on Jan 27th, 2019 at 3:23pm
Whig: I am not an owner of an early Krag, nor do I have access to one, to study firsthand.

I do see the work of a lot of craftsmen, who build very nice traditional muzzleloaders.
If such a builder put his mind to constructing a replica 'early U. S. Krag' and had some good original parts to work with, I am sure a Krag, such as your new one, would be the result.
It is very ethical that no markings were put on the stock.
(FWIW - It appears to me to be a recently made stock).

I think the front-band on your 'new' Krag is skillfully altered. There appears to be a weld or seam, where the 'tube' for the cleaning rod is attached. The inside contour at the 'tube' is a bit off - (sharp cornered instead of rounded).

I do very much like this 'reconstruction' and it is good that you knew it to be so.


Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 3:45pm
Thanks for the feedback. I need it on this.

I wasn't real sure about the front band either. It looks newly done but it is a real band and the patina inside was convincing. I don't know. It may be a welded ramrod channel but very well done. I'm thinking, though, since all of the other parts are authentic and from a real 1894 (not ramrod) that they probably would have had the front band to use as well.

Just don't know for sure. But the stock is new. It looks better after layers of soaked-in linseed oil. I love it!

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by butlersrangers on Jan 27th, 2019 at 8:42pm
I took the liberty of copying some of your 'new Krag' photos and contrasting them with details of early Krag parts.

Whig's front-band is contrasted with two early bands. It could just be me, but, the arrow points to a possible seam and different contour. The two known original bands seem to have a broad flare where the 'tube' shape meets the band.
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by butlersrangers on Jan 27th, 2019 at 8:57pm
Whig's forearm tip contrasted with an original early stock tip, (subtle differences):
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by butlersrangers on Jan 27th, 2019 at 9:22pm
It may seem I am trashing Whig's new acquisition. I am not. I am impressed with it and the builder.

IMHO - There is no intention at fakery; this Krag is a highly accurate replica with some wonderful original content!

I am pleased Whig has shared photos of his two early Krags with us!

By the grain, I think Whig's new Stock is either a Claro or a European walnut. It looks lighter in color than American black walnut. It does not have the Logwood stain used by Springfield.

The Finish has been applied even to concealed areas of the Stock, where Springfield didn't bother applying stain or finish.

It seems odd that the 'Stockmaker' used a modern washer at the rear of the action, did not make a stock 'nut' for the cleaning-rod to screw into, or drill for a cross-pin for the rear barrel-band.
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Fred G. on Jan 27th, 2019 at 9:30pm
I had a rod Bayonet 1903 that had been put together with original parts using an original and unused Field Replacement stock on it. The stock had never been used on a rifle. It Did have a band retaining spring, but no bushing for a rear trigger guard screw. Maybe the company armoror was supposed to add these, I don’t know. The stock had no Inspectors or Proof stamps, but it did have three small ones on the wrist by the stock inspector.
What I’m saying is that it’s possible somebody got ahold of an unused, field replacement original 92 stock and used it.

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by butlersrangers on Jan 27th, 2019 at 9:38pm
Whig's 'new' cleaning-rod appears it could be made from a shortened muzzle-loading Springfield rod, with a new head welded on. The white arrow points to a possible seam.

(Of course, all my comments regarding Whig's neat 'new' Krag are pure conjecture on my part. Others may have better or different opinions and insights on this neat rifle).
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Dick Hosmer on Jan 27th, 2019 at 9:58pm
No, it is not. That stock shows a great deal of thought, and lot of high-quality work, but to espouse the theory that it began life at SA is wishful thinking. The tip cut is not right, and sloppy to boot. The rod is absolutely not right, and I have some doubts (at least from the pictures/angles shown so far) as to the virginity of the upper band. Ditto the sideplate, and, am I the only one who thinks the edges of the barrel crown are not QUITE sharp enough? I'd measure the barrel length REAL carefully - only a few thousandths need to come off to 'almost' flatten a standard crown.

Not "trashing" either, honestly, but "not right" is "not right". I only hope Whig did not pay top collector dollar.

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Parashooter on Jan 27th, 2019 at 10:05pm
I believe a cursory examination of the forestock flutes ("finger grooves") shows them to be a modern product, cut not with the original ~3" cutter wheel but with a smaller ball-end router bit. Note how the origin of the flute differs on these two -

  (You need to Login
(Note also wood proud of handguard and band - surprising defects in an otherwise outstanding job of stock reproduction.)

Study attached detail from a description of the tooling used to cut similar flutes on the US M1903 to see how the cutter was used to produce more gradual entry and exit -

03flutes.gif ( 109 KB | 1 Download )

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 27th, 2019 at 11:48pm
A couple things regarding above. I think the ramrod is a new production with the head apparently welded on. The metal is very smooth with a new bluing finish. It does not appear to be a remake of an old ramrod of any type.

The barrel is exactly 30 inches, measured correctly, exactly the same as my other 1894. The muzzle is not flattened- is was made this way a long time ago. The patina is consistent with many of my other Krags and fairly even with the rest of the metal parts on this rifle.

The side plate, as you can see, is authentic and marked with the rifle's serial number as is my other 1894 side plate. The magazine cover is also with the same serial number matching the receiver. The bolt is the same on both rifles.

So, most of the metal is authentic and correct. I am not sure about the ramrod channel in the front barrel band. The top of that barrel band that fits the top of the barrel is also very clean and sharp but the barrel band itself sure looks original to a Krag if it isn't an original 1894 ramrod band.

The stock is new. I would just like to know who made it. As I said, it is not perfect but it is very nicely done. I didn't notice the difference in the finger groove cuts on the hand guard. Thanks for pointing that out. Those are the details I appreciate learning about. I like the critiques. That's what we're here for. I'm happy with this addition to my collection and, as all of them beforehand, I am learning a ton about Krags by tearing this one down to the minute details!
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Dick Hosmer on Jan 28th, 2019 at 4:40am
Well, you've got me on the sideplate. As you know, 1892 sideplates have a SLIGHTLY different look on the outside, a feature which is not clear to me in your photo, but the numbering would seem to settle it. Good discussion!

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by butlersrangers on Jan 28th, 2019 at 7:43am
FWIW - It appears the shaping of the replica Stock, in the area around the side-plate, is a little off.

Whig: You will want to make sure the rear of plate, #1631, is not in contact with the Stock, before shooting.

Otherwise, the small section of wood, between the side-plate and cut-off, is likely to 'shear off', like it did on your original early Stock.

(Note arrow on lower picture indicating apparent contact).
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by butlersrangers on Jan 28th, 2019 at 8:09am
I believe an early front barrel-band has the inside contour, that I roughly 'colored' in red.
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 28th, 2019 at 11:38am
Thanks for the warning about the wood but I don't plan on shooting this one at this time. I have my "shooters" and the rest I am cleaning up and fixing up and learning from for a collection. The barrel band has kept me wondering about those shapely cornered areas where the ramrod channel is fixated. All of the ones I've seen in real life and pictures are rounded like you point out. It is definitely not 100% original but a nice rifle with many correct parts. I hoped someone would eventually know the origin of the stock but I'll keep digging. Thanks for all the analysis though.

If the barrel band is a "creation", though, it, again, is nicely done.

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by butlersrangers on Jan 28th, 2019 at 6:33pm
Everything is nicely done on your 'new' Krag and it begs to be shot and used!

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 28th, 2019 at 7:49pm
You may be right!

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Local Boy on Jan 28th, 2019 at 10:25pm
Hi Whig,

If you feel comfortable doing the woodwork... I would consider taking the high spots, on the butt stock, down to match the butt plate.

I would also consider removing some of the wood at the back of the front band to even things out.

Just a suggestion... otherwise I'd call it good and not dink with it.

BTW: Very nice Old Timer Krag you got there!
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Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by Whig on Jan 28th, 2019 at 10:49pm
I have thought about those two areas that are a little proud of the metal but I know it's not perfect and I have slathered it with linseed oil and it all looks nice and darker now than it did. I think I'm going to leave this gem as is and keep it for further investigation in the future as a nice addition to my collection.

It may, yet, be at the range soon for testing!

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by FredC on Jan 29th, 2019 at 6:17pm

butlersrangers wrote on Jan 28th, 2019 at 8:09am:
I believe an early front barrel-band has the inside contour, that I roughly 'colored' in red.


If the only difference is the radii in the corners near the thread that could be a tooling change during production. The sharp edge on those old tool steels would have been hard to maintain. Adding the radii to the broach would have made the tool last longer and during the tools life it easier sharpen. Each sharpening during the tools life would have made the radii larger. Maybe this piece was made with the first tool before a change was made.

If I was doing the fitting this to a reproduction stock it would be so much easier to take the corners off the stock compared with the time and expense to square up the corners in the barrel band. You might look inside the band and see if the tool marks indicate original work or a later modification.

Title: Re: New 1894 Acquisition with Reproduction Stock
Post by cquickel on Feb 14th, 2020 at 8:30pm
You mind if I add your rifle to the KCA serial number database?

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