I'm going to try my hand at the long range matches at Camp Perry this year.  I'm planning on shooting my 1903A3 in the 1000 yard match.  My normal 200 yard load is a 168 gr A-Max bullet with 44.0 grains of H4895 and a CCI #34 primer.  I can shoot the center out at 200 yards, but my question is this:  Will this be accurate enough for 1000 yards?  Should I consider a different load?  I'll be shooting with the iron sights, and a prayer that my old-assed eyes can see the target, LOL!

Your eyes will see well enough, the targets are sized so the black center looks the same size at all ranges. Most .308, and 30-06 match shooters switch from 168 gr, to 175 gr. beyond 600 yards.

Paul,
Make sure your loads say sonic for 1000 (based on experience, Ha!)  !75 grs might be a better choice.
  (You need to Login
Vic

That's a rather light charge for 1000 yards - probably in the 2500fps vicinity. It's not likely to stay supersonic all the way to the target - and since bad things happen to good bullets when they slow through "transonic" territory, it's a region often avoided by long-range competitors.

To keep comfortably above Mach 1 (1125fps in standard conditions) you'll need a MV closer to 2650fps, a relatively easy task with a strong 03A3 and good commercial brass using IMR 4350 or 4831. The slightly better BC of the 178 A-Max or 175 MK will also help reduce wind deflection by cutting a bit of "lag time".

Here's relevant IMR-tested charge data with pressure results below the SAAMI 30/06 maximum of 60,000 psi (piezo) -

30-06 SPRG
REM. CASE; FED. 210 PR
SIERRA 180 GR. SPITZER BT
.308" DIA.; 24" BBL.; 3.325" C.O.L.
[Powder -- grn.- MV - psi (piezo)]
IMR 4350 54.3 2670 55000
IMR 4831 55.8 2700 57000
IMR 4831 55.3 2670 56000

I shoot 175s anything over 600 yards in my SR90 .308 sniper rifle. The 168s are just too light to keep supersonic over around 800 yards. Depends on muzzle velocity, weather conditions and barrel, of course. You'll probably get keyholes if you try to push the 168s to 1000 yards.

Actually, you'll only know if you try. The numbers can be crunched all day but all of the factors in your situation will be the deciding criteria.

Let us know how it works!

This is great information... and exactly what I was looking for.  Ok, so I'll look into some bullets that are 175 or above, and start working up a good load.  I've been partial to A-Max bullets lately, but I am willing to try Match Kings if everyone thinks they perform better.  Again, this will be my first foray into long range shooting, and I'm excited... but I don't want to look like a chump either...  LOL

psteinmayer wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2019 at 10:37pm:

. . . I've been partial to A-Max bullets lately, but I am willing to try Match Kings if everyone thinks they perform better. . .

Try both, if you can. Published BC's are about the same. Use whichever groups best at needed velocity.

10-ring of LR target is 20" diameter (~2 MOA) so should be no problem on a dead calm day. Unfortunately, that's not usually the condition at Camp Perry and even a gentle 5 mph crosswind throws a good shot some 50" out for a six or miss at 1000 yards.

Long range is a wind-doping game. If you need to hone those skills but don't have a 1000-yard range handy, practice at 200 with a good .22 target rifle and match-grade ammo.

Paul
I've got some 178 Amax bullets, if you would like to try them.  Would be glad to ship you a handful...
Vic

You might also try the Hornady ELD match bullets, very high BC. In my 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, I have been getting near 1/2 minute groups, at 100, and 300 yards. I intend to try the .308 bullets for .308 and 30-06. The Sierra Match King 175's have given good results at 800, 900, and 1000 yards., using an M-1A match grade. At 600, good groups 1 minute, or less (4") with a Springfield 1903 A3 (Remington 1943), which has Lyman 57 rear sight, and Lyman front sight. The ELD bullets have a higher BC than the Match Kings, when I try the .308 bullets,  I will report.

Kerz wrote on Mar 4^th, 2019 at 12:33pm:

Paul I've got some 178 Amax bullets, if you would like to try them.  Would be glad to ship you a handful... Vic

I'd have to pay you Vic...  or at least buy you dinner at the annual Roosevelt Match dinner this year... but yes, I'd love to try them, thanks.

For what it's worth, my 1903A3 is a Remington with a two-groove barrel, and it's a tack driver at 200 yards.  I don't have access to a 1000 yard range to try different loads at, so I'm going to have to do some homework, and try loads at 100 yards to see how they group, and hopefully I can translate the results to 1000 yards. 

I looked at the ELD Match bullets too.  Hornady says that the ELDs are the next generation Match technology.  Perhaps I'll try both ELD and A-Max.

Ok, I've received some 178 gr A-Max bullets from a good friend.  I've settled on H4831.  I've consulted several charts and manuals, and I think 60.0 grains of H4831 should keep the pressures relatively low while still giving me approximately 2700 FPS.  It will be a compressed load.  IMR-4350 should give a higher velocity... but also higher pressures, so I'm going to stick with the 4831.  I'll be using Lake City brass and CCI #34 primers too. 

How does this all sound?

I would sneak up on 2700, I loaded some 168 gr. loads to 2700 with IMR 4895 and the primers showed excess pressure.

The only problem with working up is I don't have a chrono.  I'm going off established load manual charts.  I really wish I had a chrono, and the time to do a work up, but with my work and family commitments... in addition to my lack of additional funding means I have to trust manuals and the advice of people here at KCA.

Again... any help you all can give would be greatly appreciated!

I think with H4831 you'll run into about the same as I did in my Krag when I compared it to RL19 and the boosted WC860 using 150gr FMJBTs.  Even with the longer Krag barrel, it really didn't get up to pressure and gave me a lower velocity as compared to the other two.  Didn't group as good either.  I used the #34 primer in all the loads.  That was the SC also.

A very knowledgeable F class shooter told me yesterday, that the ELD bullets are extremely good, but seating depth is critical, affecting accuracy, find the sweet spot and they will make one hole in your target. I have only used them in a Swiss Mauser 6.5x55, so far, but am getting 1/2 minute results.

Looking at the ELD on Hornady's website.  It appears they've gone to a form that is less of a secant ogive bullet than what Hornady bullets normally are.  I've been doing some comparision across different calibers, secant ogive vs tangent.  Secant ogive bullets appear to me to more accurate.  It also seems to me they group higher and to the left of the POI of tangent ogive bullets of the same or similar weight, with similar loads.  Oddly, the Sierra Tipped Matchkings in 30 caliber are now more of a secant ogive design. My K31 loves the 168gr seated to just touch the rifling, but it's the only 30 caliber I have wherein it will do that.

Fortunately, since the long range matches are slow-fire (single shot) only... I won't have to worry about working through the magazine.  Therefore, I can seat the bullets out a little to engage the rifling. 

I just talked to a very knowledgeable F class competitor, he said the ELD match bullets have given him excellent results, but seating depth is critical.

Capt. Frank wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 2:43pm:

I just talked to a very knowledgeable F class competitor, he said the ELD match bullets have given him excellent results, but seating depth is critical.

Did he happen to say what his OAL is?  I could use that as a jumping off point. 

No, but it is different for each rifle, your idea about contacting the rifling may be good place to start. In my 6.5x55, I used Hornady's seating depth, and got good results.

As others have stated staying supersonic is the critical part. I use to shoot LR a good bit with an M1A and 175 SMKs so they will perform.
If you need zeros I always found the "thermometer" target works very well not only for elevation but to make sure your windage tracks as the sight goes up. You don't want to be that guy who fires immediately as they give the command so he can gauge his windage by which target goes down. If you need it I can get the official name of the target.
I would not be surprised if you didn't have to file some on your front sight to get the elevation you need. 

Good luck on the elevation with that 'A3! (Or do you have an aftermarket rear sight on it?)
                        
You'll need a "come-up" of about 35 MOA from 200 to 1000 with MatchKing or A-Max at ~2650fps - and the issue 'A3 sight only goes up some 29 MOA from 200 to the 800 max graduation. Here's a breakdown from engineer and distinguished rifleman Bob S. -   (You need to Login

Image below shows calculated ballistics for the 175 MK at 2650 fps. "Clicks" are 1 MOA.

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The Bridgeville Rifle and Pistol Club is installing a large gong at 1000 yards. All match shooters will have to hit the gong, before they can shoot the electronic targets. This to prevent damage to the targets, by someone who does not have a correct 1000 yard zero.

My rear sight is the standard 03A3 rear sight.  In order to shoot in a CMP match "As Issued", it can't be altered. 

It sounds like I have a butt-ton of homework to do!  I may have to alter my POA to compensate.

psteinmayer wrote on Mar 15^th, 2019 at 9:49pm:

My rear sight is the standard 03A3 rear sight.  In order to shoot in a CMP match "As Issued", it can't be altered. . .

But the CMP Long Range Matches aren't "as-issued". (You're shooting a Krag in the as-issued matches, right?)

Following text is copied from the 2019 Long Range Schedule -

2019 National Long Range Match Schedule
Monday, 5 August
9:00AM        Viale Memorial Match         Viale Range
Unlimited Sighting Shots & 20 Record Shots in 30 minutes @ 1000 Yards
Match Rifle/ Iron Sights, Service Rifle or Palma Rifle
Critchfield Memorial Match
Unlimited Sighting Shots & 20 Record Shots in 30 minutes @ 1000 Yards
Match Rifle/ Iron Sights, Service Rifle or Palma Rifle

Tuesday, 6 August
9:00AM        Kerr Memorial Match          Viale Range
Unlimited Sighting Shots & 20 Record Shots in 30 minutes @ 1000 Yards
Match Rifle/Any Sights, Service Rifle or Palma Rifle
Henry Memorial Match
Unlimited Sighting Shots & 20 Record Shots in 30 minutes @ 1000 Yards
Match Rifle/ Any Sights, Service Rifle or Palma Rifle

And from the 2019 Highpower Competition Rules -

5.10 CMP Long Range Courses
The CMP Long Range Courses are CMP highpower rifle events that are  conducted during  the  National  Matches  and  may  be  conducted  in  other CMP-sanctioned competitions. Competitors may use the Service Rifle (Rules 4.1.1, 4.1.3, 4.1.4), Alternative Rifle (Rule 4.1.2),  Match Rifle (Rule 4.1.5)  and the Long Range Service Rifle (Rule 4.1.6).

Actually, I'm shooting my Krag in the Roosevelt Match, my K-31 in Vintage, and my 1903A3 in the Springfield Match... all are As Issued.  Since I only have one 03A3, I would be altering the rifle and it would no longer be eligible for the Springfield Match, unless I alter it after the match.  The bottom line is I don't really want to have to change it, and I only own one.  So I may have to set the rear sight for a different elevation to be on point at 1000 yards, OR... find my point of aim for 1000 yards and treat it like Kentucky Windage (aim for a point above the bullseye). 

Unlimited sighters, bring lots of rounds!  LOL!  I've always paid attention to Bob S info, you do have a lot of things to think about Paul.  Seating your bullets out to the rifling is good, gives one a bit more room for the powder you'll need to get the velocity.

psteinmayer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2019 at 4:00pm:

Actually, I'm shooting my Krag in the Roosevelt Match, my K-31 in Vintage, and my 1903A3 in the Springfield Match . . . So I may have to set the rear sight for a different elevation to be on point at 1000 yards, OR... find my point of aim for 1000 yards and treat it like Kentucky Windage (aim for a point above the bullseye).

I thought the Springfield/Vintage match was a combined event (running on two days). Do they let you register twice (once for each day)?

Anyway, since you'd need to aim some 6-feet high to hit the 1000-yard bull and there ain't nothing up there but sky, eagles, and Lake Erie, you might as well cut another front blade short enough to get you in the center with your preferred hold.

Center hold: +6.5 MOA x .008" = .051" shorter (presuming issue blade prints center at 200 yard setting and range)
6:00 hold: +2.1 MOA for 22" radius of aiming black x .008" = .017": Total .068" shorter
Frame hold: +3.4 MOA for half of 6' frame height x .008 = .027": Total .078" shorter.

You can check the blade at 100 yards by setting the elevation to 800 and looking for a group 39.6" above center bull - or 74.6 at 200 (presuming a MV near 2650 fps and BC near .500. Scrounge a chronograph!). If using a 6:00 hold, use an 8.8" aiming black to emulate the size of the 44" LR target black at 1000 yards.  Leave the blade a bit tall and bring a file to the range for final adjustment. 

Once that short blade is finalized, see where she hits at the 200-yard setting and adjust your hold for the Springfield Match - or bring the original blade, a hammer, and a pin punch to Perry so you can swap out there.

Long Range is a different animal - fun but frustrating!

Some more Bob S 03A3 long range info I ran across.    (You need to Login

Yes, the Springfield and Vintage are combined events, but I shoot both (Vintage will be shot Saturday afternoon after the Garand match, and Springfield will be shot Sunday morning). 

Now I wish I had a separate 03A3 for the Long Range match.... things would be a lot less complicated!  Anyway, I really do appreciate all of the advice, and I hope I'm not sounding curt or crass.  I'm just trying to take all of this in.  With all of the experience I've gained in loading and shooting over the last 30 odd years, this LR shooting is a totally new deal for me, and I'm eager to learn, but definitely willing to listen to advice too.

It sounds like I'd better get a separate front sight blade that I can modify.  My 200 yard accuracy is dead on for the 200 yard setting, and I really don't want to screw with that, so I would take a different blade and tools to swap it out after shooting the Springfield match.  Any idea of how short to cut the blade as a starting point to get close?  I'll take a file to the firing line too!

psteinmayer wrote on Mar 17^th, 2019 at 12:13am:

. . . Any idea of how short to cut the blade as a starting point to get close? . . .

Center hold: +6.5 MOA x .008" = .051" shorter (presuming issue blade prints center at 200 yard setting and range)
6:00 hold: +2.1 MOA for 22" radius of aiming black x .008" = .017": Total .068" shorter
Frame hold: +3.4 MOA for half of 6' frame height x .008 = .027": Total .078" shorter.

Below is trajectory data with 1000 yard zero. "PATH" column shows where we expect group center at various ranges. Handy if you have to sight in at shorter range.

Top image is "standard" atmosphere. Bottom is corrected for altitude at Viale range and a medium-hot summer day. Note how much difference this makes in drop, path, and drift. Working with 1000-yard stuff can get complicated!

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Paul
You might consider a USMC type reproduction sight from Bill Bentz.  These are significantly wider than standard sights (plus as-issued legal should you want one for Springfield games).  He does make them in various heights.  Send him an email and advise your intended plans.  I'm sure he can help out. 
dcm450shtr@comcast.net
Vic

Have you tried the old M1 Rifle sighting target?  I've used them to get in the ball park.  Set target at 50 yds and use a 6 O'clock on the black circle at the bottom. For scopes, you sight with horizontal cross hair like a 6 O'clock hold.

I bought mine from National Target Company (ST-1) at:   (You need to Login


I could mail you a couple if you would like.

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I emailed Bill Vic... thanks very much.

Tex... That would be amazing.  Please let me know what I would owe you.

If you have to sight in at 50 yards, the ST-1 target should work well since it's designed for M72 Match ammo, with a MV ~2650fps and BC near .500 - the same as we've been suggesting for your LR handloads. See this article for some M72 handload information -   (You need to Login

Looking at the ruler on the target, we can see the 1000-yard line is ~19.3" above center bull, corresponding to ~38.6" at 100 yards (drop being negligible from 50 to 100 yards).

If you can sight in at 100 yards and want the same effect, just mark your target some 38.6" above center bull and adjust sights to group there. To simulate a 6:00 hold on the LR target at 1000, use a 4.4" aiming black.

Hey Paul
Let us know what Bentz recommends for a 1000 yd sight.
Vic

Well... Mr. Bentz offered to sell me a sight, but did not recommend a height.  He just told me to let him know what height I need the sight to be.  I haven't got a clue!  I guess I need to know what height I need to be able to use the 600 yard setting on the rear sight for 1000 yards.  That way, I can go up or down to fine tune things!  Does anyone know?

Sorry if I sound like I'm in over my head, and haven't got a clue.  The truth is... I'm in over my head, and I haven't got a clue!!!  I really want to get this right the first time, and learn!  I'm just asking for help...

Addendum:  I just noticed Para's recommendations on blade heights.  Pardon my ignorance, but I'm not quite sure which height I need, so if someone can please explain to help me understand.  Thanks.

psteinmayer wrote on Mar 21^st, 2019 at 9:29pm:

. . .I just noticed Para's recommendations on blade heights.  Pardon my ignorance, but I'm not quite sure which height I need, so if someone can please explain to help me understand. . .

OK, first thing would be to determine where to measure. You could measure from the top of the blade to the top of the base, from the top of the blade to the top of the barrel, or even from the top of the blade to the bottom surface of the band that holds the base on the barrel. If you want to remove the blade, you can measure it from top to bottom or from top to pin hole.

Once you've chosen where to measure, apply that choice to your existing front sight and measure it as precisely as you can.  Then make, buy, or alter a new blade that will be shorter than the existing one when measured in the same way. How much shorter depends on your load and your hold.

If you'll be using the same hold ("6:00" for example) at 1000 yards as you do at 200 and your 03A3 puts your long-range handloads in the center at 200 with the existing blade, you'll want your new blade to be about .050 shorter than your existing blade.  Leave the blade a bit tall and bring a file to the range for final adjustment.

You can check the new blade at 100 yards by setting the elevation to 800 and looking for a group ~39" above center bull - or ~74 at 200 (presuming a MV near 2650 fps and BC near .500.). If using a 6:00 hold at 100, use a 4.4" aiming black to emulate the size of the 44" LR target black at 1000 yards. At 200, use 8.8" bull.   

psteinmayer wrote on Mar 21^st, 2019 at 9:29pm:

. . . I need to know what height I need to be able to use the 600 yard setting on the rear sight for 1000 yards.  That way, I can go up or down to fine tune things! . .

Sounds like a good idea, giving you some leeway if you need to come up a bit and don't have time to start filing on your blade. To calculate this, we need to look at Bob S's table of MOA values for the A3 sight at   (You need to Login

Adding up the MOA values for all the graduations from 200 to 600, we get a total of 16.5 MOA. Looking at the ballistics for a BC ~.500 bullet at ~2650 fps, we find we'll need to come up about 36.5 MOA from 200 to 1000. Since the 600-yard setting gets us only to 16.5 MOA, we get the remaining 20 MOA with a shorter front sight. One MOA change requires a .008" change of the sight, so .008" x 20 = .16". You'll need a blade about that much shorter than your existing one. That will look pretty short compared to the issue blade.

Now you can check the new blade at 100 yards by setting the elevation to 600 and looking for a group ~39" above center bull - or ~74 at 200 (presuming a MV near 2650 fps and BC near .500.). If using a 6:00 hold at 100, use a 4.4" aiming black to emulate the size of the 44" LR target black at 1000 yards. At 200, use 8.8" bull. 

As always...  My friends here at KCA are the BEST!  Thank you so very much for your help and understanding.  Like I said, this is all so new to me, and I know it'll be great once I get it all together.  Usually, I can go out and shoot and be pretty successful at it... and have been so far.  But In this case, I don't want to make any mistakes or look like a fool (which I usually am). 

I have a new blade on the way which is shorter than standard, and I'll further reduce it based on your recommendations.  I'll be sighting at 100 yards, and hopefully I'll get it all set. 

I cannot thank you enough Para!!!

A foot note:. The friend sending me the  sight blade is also a fellow Krag shooter, and he joked "You're not going to shoot your Krag at 1000 yards?". We had a good chuckle over that!  ;D

psteinmayer wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2019 at 11:49am:

. . . he joked "You're not going to shoot your Krag at 1000 yards?". We had a good chuckle over that!  ;D

What's so funny? :-?

If you have a good Krag with 1901 or 1902 sights, you might have a better time at 1000 yards than with the 03A3 - and you won't have to modify the as-issued configuration.

All you need is good VLD bullets with a high BC, like the Berger 185-grain  in the table below. Bullet info at:   (You need to Login

QuickLOAD estimates getting a 185 up to 2450 fps is a relatively easy job for a 30" Krag. 42.8 grains of IMR 4350, OAL 3.2" could be one way to do it well below CIP Pmax of 3250 bar (piezo transducer - equivalent to ~39000 CUP). Supersonic all the way - and less wind drift than your 30/06 loads with the 175's and H4831SC.

Table below shows calculated ballistics for a such a load at Viale in summer. Compare to the tables in reply #31 on this topic to see how the old Krag can compete!

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I seriously doubt that my V-V Tin Star Krag loads would even go 1000 yards. But they seem to do ok at 100. Brings to mind another great movie line, ‘a man’s got to know his limitations.’

Parashooter wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2019 at 9:33pm:

What's so funny? :-? If you have a good Krag with 1901 or 1902 sights, you might have a better time at 1000 yards than with the 03A3 - and you won't have to modify the as-issued configuration.

Hmmmmmmm  Now you got me thinking...  I bet I'd be the only Krag shooting in the LR Match!  Maybe I should rethink this!

All depends on how your Krag groups with VLD's. If it's as good as your A3, why not use a real rifle instead of that stamped-out war baby!?

Here's some text from Berger's web page on their 185 "Juggernaut" -


Quote:

Berger Juggernaut Target Bullets utilize Berger’s industry-leading hybrid ogive, which blends tangent and secant designs to optimize efficiency, reduce wind-drift, and minimize sensitivity to seating depth. Its name was derived from its ability to move from transonic stage to subsonic with little disruption, where most bullets see an accelerated decrease in accuracy at these extreme long ranges. Juggernaut Target Bullets are competition proven and a favorite amongst today’s top Mil/LE professionals, long range competition shooters and others for range, target, and tactical applications.

Sounds interesting! :-?

'Parashooter' - A maybe naive thought regarding drift with the 185 grain Berger "Juggernaut" match bullet and adjusting Krag rifle rear-sight windage.

Your table shows a rather uniform drift, (to the right, I'm sure), out to 1,000 yards.

I imagine the Berger bullet would depart the Krag bore angled to the Left, (probably due to barrel harmonics), if things followed the pattern found in Ordnance Department testing, conducted in the mid to late 1890's.

IIRC - Krag projectiles moved to the Left significantly as range increased. However, at around 1,000 yards bullet drift had brought the projectile back toward the Right and it actually crossed the 'center line' and continued drifting to the Right.

Unless I'm terribly missing something, wouldn't the Krag sight windage adjustment have to take into account the angling of the projectile to the Left, as well the bullet's rotational drift to the Right?

I suspect you've misinterpreted "Drift" in the table. This is not gyroscopic drift (a still-air constant) but wind drift, the effect of the fact that the bullet is moving through a fluid (air) which may itself be in motion relative to the stationary rifle and target.

The posted tables are calculated to show the displacement of POI from still-air zero (already adjusted for gyroscopic drift) as the result of a 10mph 90-degree crosswind - an arbitrary but useful fiction from which one can extrapolate the actual "windage" required in a wind of different speed and angle. Such information is critical in long-range competition where a gentle breeze can move one's otherwise-perfect shot over to an adjacent target at 1000 yards.

Image below is Hatcher's concise explanation of gyroscopic drift. For a more thorough discussion, see   (You need to Login) and/or   (You need to Login

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Thank you 'parashooter' for the additional information and explanations. I totally missed that the drift figures, in the tables you supplied, were caused and based on a 10 mph crosswind.

It is interesting that Hatcher states the 'gyroscopic drift' of the bullet to the Right, due to bullet rotation, is only about 6.7 inches at 1,000 yards (with .30-06/ M-2 bullet)
Maybe the Krag rifle initially sending a projectile to the Left, but, the bullet drifting to the Right and crossing the 'center line' at around the 1,000 yard mark, isn't a big deal and rather fortunate.

It appears good wind 'doping' is the critical factor at 1,000 yards.

This is all quite fascinating!  So here's an interesting thought:  Since the Long Range Match consists of two firings (first the Critchfield Match, and immediately after, the Viale Commemorative Match), what if I fire the 1903A3 in the Critchfield and the Krag in the Viale Commemorative?  I may not win... but I'll bet I'll be talked about! 

In all seriousness, shooting the Krag really sounds like an interesting proposition.  Since I have 200 of the Hornady 178 grain ELD-Match bullets, what would the chances be if I shot those out of the Krag?  What would my load, pressures and ballistics look like?  I may just do that instead.  It might actually simplify things for me.  I have 100 new Graf cases, and I'll order 100 more (if I'm going to shoot at near max pressure, I'd want new brass). 

According to the Hodgdon site, a 180 grain bullet loaded with 46.0 grains (compressed) of IMR-4350 should achieve 2,445 FPS at 38,700 CUP.  This is listed as their max load.  Loaded with 49.0 grains (compressed) of 4831 should give 2,425 FPS at 35,900 CUP (also listed as max).  Since I have 2 pounds of the H4831SC, I might like to used that powder for this.

Your thoughts?

Ok... after a wonderful phone conversation with a very smart and very nice fellow KCA member, I've decided that I'm going to shoot the 1903A3 in the Long Range Matches.  It just groups much better than my Krag (sorry guys).

psteinmayer wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2019 at 2:45pm:

According to the Hodgdon site, a 180 grain bullet loaded with 46.0 grains (compressed) of IMR-4350 should achieve 2,445 FPS at 38,700 CUP.  This is listed as their max load.  Loaded with 49.0 grains (compressed) of 4831 should give 2,425 FPS at 35,900 CUP (also listed as max).

You'd be amazed how old that data is. Here's a copy of the same stuff from a 2003 downloaded IMR booklet (PDF of 2 pages attached) which is the same as that found in a printed version so old it has "DuPont" on the cover -

.30-40 KRAG
WIN. CASE; WIN. 8 1/2-120 PR
REM. 180 GR. SPCL
.308" DIA.; 25.5" BBL.; 3.00" C.O.L.
Powder - Gr. - Vel - CUP
SR 4759 24.0 1940 39100
IMR 4227 23.0 1900 37800
IMR 4198 29.5 2150 39800
IMR 3031 38.0 2375 39300
IMR 4064 41.0 2435 39000
IMR 4895 35.5 2270 38800
IMR 4320 35.5 2210 38100
IMR 4350 46.0C 2445 38700
IMR 4831 49.0C 2425 35900
C=Compressed

An odd feature of this data is that the "maximum" for some compressed loads is not because of pressure, but rather it's all they could stuff in the case and still seat the bullet. :-/

Anyhow, the 178's don't have a high enough BC to reach 1000 comfortably supersonic when launched at reasonable Krag velocity. Close, but on the edge of the nasty transonic region That's why I'd want those pricey Berger 185's if I had to fire that course with my Krag.

I think you're wise to stick with the 03A3 simply because it groups better. Nostalgia is fun - but not as much as a string of 10's and X's at over half a mile!

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All this talk of wind drift and such has me thinking back to the late 80s.  M-14s and M1As ruled, guys had built Garands trying to compete with them.  From 600yds on a windy day the mouse guns were hitting targets next door to the one they were shooting at!  600 is the longest range I've shot from at Perry.  I did pretty good back then, I had a Devine M1A that I'd built up very much like my Garand.  I didn't know the collector value of the Devine, sold it when going to college in the 90s.  I don't think I'll be sticking around for your long range attempt Paul, but I'll be anxious to see how it goes for you.

Parashooter wrote on Mar 21^st, 2019 at 11:10pm:

Adding up the MOA values for all the graduations from 200 to 600, we get a total of 16.5 MOA. Looking at the ballistics for a BC ~.500 bullet at ~2650 fps, we find we'll need to come up about 36.5 MOA from 200 to 1000. Since the 600-yard setting gets us only to 16.5 MOA, we get the remaining 20 MOA with a shorter front sight. One MOA change requires a .008" change of the sight, so .008" x 20 = .16". You'll need a blade about that much shorter than your existing one. That will look pretty short compared to the issue blade. Now you can check the new blade at 100 yards by setting the elevation to 600 and looking for a group ~39" above center bull - or ~74 at 200 (presuming a MV near 2650 fps and BC near .500.). If using a 6:00 hold at 100, use a 4.4" aiming black to emulate the size of the 44" LR target black at 1000 yards. At 200, use 8.8" bull.

Ok, I've shortened the spare blade by 0.16.  The standard blade height on my 03A3 is 1.496, and the height with the reduced blade is 1.351.  I'll sight it in using the 600 yard setting at 100 yards using Para's calculations.  Hopefully, I'll be close and won't need to file it down too much more!

Hey Paul
Any update?
Vic

Howdy Vic...

Naw, I got sidetracked temporarily.  I'll hit the range in a couple weeks when family things settle down a bit.  I did create a target with a 39 inch spread between two bulls.  Holy Schmoly…  that's one hell of a spread between POA and POI!  Hope they let me hang that target (state owned range).

Ok 1000 yard match .. you want a good bullet with a good load that is going to go out to 1000 yards and be accurate enough to hit the target ... here one thing you can do go to J&G sales and order some 30-06 Danish 148 gr 1960 AMA manufacture ammo ... 20 round box 15.99 ... 

Better than loading your own?

Looks like M2 Ball to me. Not exactly 1000-yard medicine.

Well all... finally made it to the range today.  I loaded up Lake City 72 cases with 60.0 grains of H4831SC and 178 gr A-Max bullets.  I had a target with two 4 inch bullseyes at 39 inches apart.  It was a little difficult sighting because the wind was blowing the lower bull around a little... but with my reduced sight blade and the rear elevation set to 600, the results were close enough to convince me I'm on the right track, and at 1000 yards, I'll be squarely in the ball park!  The bang was quite sharp, and the kick was pretty hard, but no signs of excess pressure either.  I'll load up the actual match ammo with 178 gr ELD-Match bullets!

Thanks so much to everyone for their help and advice!

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Keep in mind that at 1000 yards, the LR target's 10" X-ring is about 1 MOA, the 10-ring 2 MOA, and the 9-ring 3 MOA. You'll have to center 20 shots inside that 3 MOA to earn a decent score.  If practicing at 100 yards, the MR-31 target will give a fair approximation of scoring on the LR at 1000. Practice at 100 in some wind with a good .22 to refine the wind-doping skills essential at long-range.

Thanks for 'splaining that target!

Looks like you're ready to score well at 1000, Paul!

Great shooting.

I de-capped the brass and inspected them pretty closely.  Again, no bulging or signs of excess pressure.  However,  I fired 15 rounds and there were three primers that had slightly flattened (a tiny hint of mushrooming).  The cases were all LC 72 except one HXP 77.

Now, I see this often in my 7.5 mm Swiss reloads, and those I reload with Berdan primers, and I attribute it to slightly loose primers.  Again, I never see any other signs of excess pressure.

Do you think these three primers are an indication of a pending problem?  Or is this just because of the "Hot" loads, and possibly slightly loose primers?  FWIW, I always use primer sealant.

Great thread. Lots of information here. Some primer flattening here and there is no problem. If it was combined with sticky extraction or sticky bolt lift... that's a problem. Additionally, you may have a bit or catering as an additional sign.

If the brass was on its first or second firing, it it still stretching ever-so-much to fill the chamber in all directions. That extra little bit of space allows the primer to back out just a hair as pressure builds and it expands a bit since the side walls of the primer are not supported by the primer pocket..., then the casing moves back under the rising pressure curve and pushes back onto the primer.

I personally think brass becomes the most consistent in a rifle after it has been fired in that rifle 3-4 times and only being neck sized each time.

As an aside..... When I shot .308, I shot just the 175g Matchking out to 1200 yards. I was pushing mine right about 2700 fps out of a 26" barrel and just barely off the lands (no more than .010").   It hammered 2MOA steel at 1000 all day long.  Different cartridge aside, the velocity was was kept me consistent at that distance.

I know its more money, but for long range shooting, a chronograph is a nearly indispensable tool. It allows you to collect the necessary data (standard deviation and extreme spread) to really make to most of Long distance.

I use a Magnetospeed Sporter which is the cheaper version at $179.  Yes, it changes your POI while it's on because it's changing the barrel harmonics. But the POI shift is consistent, I.e. my POI shifts up 5 moa on my Tikka T3x with its "lite" contour barrel. The group size is the same with the MagSpeed on or off the barrel.

So, whenever I shoot a load development series, I don't "zero" the rifle with the thing on.  It gets zero'd once I pick the load after the mad scientist portion is done.

Clcustom1911 wrote on Jun 27^th, 2019 at 6:39am:

... So, whenever I shoot a load development series, I don't "zero" the rifle with the thing on.  It gets zero'd once I pick the load after the mad scientist portion is done.

That is good thinking.  I would have made that mistake.

The Lake City was from a lot I purchased in bulk a couple years ago on Vender's Row... and as far as I know was all once fired.  I'm assuming it was all machine gun as several have slightly off center flash holes (I've been told that it's an indication of MG brass).  Perhaps this is why military primers are crimped. 

Yep.

Howdy all!

Well, the Long Range Match was a success.  My son and I shot both the Viale and Critchfield LR Matches.  I took 200 rounds with us, and between the two of us over the course of the two matches, we shot about 140 rounds total.  All were the 178 gr ELD-Match bullet with 60.0 grains of H4831SC and a CCI #34 Mil Spec primer.  we had some slightly flattened primers, but nothing alarming.  The gun performed well.  The target was nearly impossible to see through the iron sights, but we managed by locating the adjacent target numbers and then sighted between them, which put us on our target.  It took me 12 shots to get on paper, but when I did, we knew where our hold was after that.  Those 178s did a nice job of cutting through the wind, although we did have to correct a little.  There were a few misses... and my son hit the berm twice and cross fired once, LOL.  Above all... we had a lot of FUN!!! 

The picture shows me preparing for a shot!

---

Paul,
Success aka "fun" is what it's all about!  Yelp, 1000 yds can be a little tough on the eyes.
Vic

Paul, sounds great and I wish I was ready and able to shoot with you.

Playing ignorant, which I am,...what firearms were the two of you shooting at this long range? What size target were you shooting at? It must have been impossible to see with open sights at 1000 yards!

How many sighters did they allow?

Sorry, I'm just not familiar with anything at Perry.

Thanks and great job to both of you!

Whig,  The target WAS nearly impossible to see!  The X ring is 12 inches across, and the 8 ring (the largest of black) was about 48 inches.  The 7 ring was the largest ring, and if you were outside of that ON paper, you scored a 6.  The target itself was (estimating) about 6 foot square!  Once we found our hold (through the help of a Marine with a very large pair of binoculars), the front sight blade completely covered the target, so our hold with zero wind was between the adjacent targets with a top frame hold (the top of the blade even with the top of the target frame).  Believe me when I say that it was VERY HARD to achieve that because just the mirage of heat coming off the field blurred the targets!  LR shooting is a whole different game!!!

We shot my 1903A3, and our ammo was detailed earlier.  We were competing against Long Range rifles, Match rifles and Palma rifles.  They allowed unlimited sighters, but you had to fire 20 shots for record and you only had 30 minutes to do it all... so you didn't want to fire too many sighters.  In the second match, once we confirmed that out hold hadn't changed, we shot for record after 5 or so sighters. 

Another thing to note:  There is NO coaching... so your scorer can't call out your shots once you've indicated that you're shooting for record.  You MUST have a spotting scope just so you can see where your shots are hitting.  Ron and I only had one scope... so I wound up buying a second, and way more expensive scope for that purpose!  If you are by yourself, one scope is enough because your scorer will use his for scoring.

Does anyone use a small telescope or is the highest mag for a spotter still 60X?

Sounds like a ton of fun. I never liked having too many rules, though. That's why I don't travel to those kind of competitions. We have a lot of good fun shooting at our local range with quite relaxed shooting rules.

Whig - if you download the rule books from CMP and NRA, many of your questions can be answered, like target dimensions -

800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target
NRA No. LR -
Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring ....... 10.00
10 ring....... 20.00
9 ring........ 30.00
8 ring........ 44.00
7 ring.......... 60.00
6 area . . . 72x72 square

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Thanks for the info about the rule book. I'll look at that.

Still would like to know others' opinions and experience with the scopes?

I searched for a different eyepiece for my Bushnell Elite 60X spotting scope and called the company but no where have I found any stronger eyepiece to use that would increase the power of the scope. I have a small telescope but need to get an inverting objective to flip the image.

Just wondering what others do at extreme ranges like 1000 yards plus. I have a March Optics 8 x 80 scope on my long range Robar SR90 .308 rifle. That's more mag than my spotting scope.

[quote author=43726172607B7C7C677661130 link=1551622662/71#71 date=1565122012]Whig - if you download the rule books from CMP and NRA, many of your questions can be answered, like target dimensions -

800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target
NRA No. LR -
Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring ....... 10.00
10 ring....... 20.00
9 ring........ 30.00
8 ring........ 44.00
7 ring.......... 60.00
6 area . . . 72x72 square

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Thanks for that.  I was guestimating on memory... but I was close (forgot that the dimensions were in the rule book).  Still, 6 foot square is awful small at over half a mile, LOL!