Or is it possible.  About 1/2 the Krags I see have a dark red/brown color and shinny gloss look.  I belive the look is from soldiers rubbing gun oil over the stock and 100 years of time.  What ever it is I like the old glossy 'look'.  The other 1/2 of the guns appeared to have been cleaned at some point.  They look lke any other old gun on the rack.  I am looing for a nice 1902 ish rifle with the 02 stock and 02 sight and 02 serial number.  I found one locally and everything is perfect, good bore, crisp cartouche - BUT !! at some point some one improved it with a good cleaning.  I could hold out, or I could give this orphan a home.

Is there any way to get that old look back?  I heard tricks like Mystery Oil or Liquid Gold and lots of time and rubbing.  Note this is not a preservative, it is to replicate what we know today is bad practice of using petroleum product on a wood stock. That is for the gloss.  Then there is the color.  Were these stained?  The unmolested guns have a deep redish tint.

Can these ever be made to look right again?

The American walnut Krag stocks were stained at Springfield with 'logwood' stain, which gave them a pleasant reddish-brown color.

When woodwork was completed, they were subjected to a soak in hot 'vats' of linseed oil.

There were also 30,000 Krag stocks made from Italian walnut blanks. These are lighter in color, but, sometimes were stained locally to better match the other Krags in a unit.

'Marvel Oil' has no place on a wood stock, use Linseed Oil thinned with turpentine.

Howard's Feed & Wax, Carnauba wax, or Furniture polish like 'Pledge' or 'Liquid Gold' should do no harm to a rubbed Linseed Oil finish.

IMHO and experience, discussion of wood finish and wood care products, will often start a Holy War.

Never use Marvel Oil or Oven Cleaner on wood! 

I work on a lot of stocks from general cleaning to restoring and matching varnish and aging colors.

I have used Howard's Feed and Wax for years for cleaning and some restoration work but this will not darken the wood. I use Boiled Linseed Oil when I am trying to restore the aged look and fix stocks that needed some staining initially.

We all have our secret ways of working with our mil surp stocks. The old adage of "Do No Harm" plays well with this kind of work. Strong petroleum products and some chemical cleaners will ruin nice wood so be careful.

If you have a specific problem, post some pictures and let us see. We might suggest a certain approach.

Good luck and keep us informed!

It appears this forum will host photos. If I get the rifle I will post a picture.

Is there a stain available today that will match the logwood color?

Honestly, with the wide variety of different colors or appearance of authentic, aged, military configuration Krag rifles and carbines, I don't think you need to reproduce the exact original stain used 120 years ago. I have a number of Krags, as do many others on this forum, and most of them, side by side, look different. I use staining to try to best match the specific firearm stock I am working on for consistency of the different parts. I hate seeing a Krag that has a dark stock and a light hand guard. I have actually passed up purchasing some nice Krags because they appeared to be mismatched in their stock parts. That's a dead give-a-way that it has been pieced together at some point.

So, you don't have to reproduce the original color of stain to be authentic or correct.

Others can chime in to help. I have not studied the original staining process as much as some other Krag-philes, so, your question may be answered better by someone else. I just wanted to add my 2c worth of experience!

I just rubbed wax from an ordinary toilet bowl ring into the woods of a No1 rifle I just restored. Seen it done elsewhere and along with a couple of good doses of flax seed oil, sunlight and turpentine it worked like a charm.
That barbaric thick gooey yellow wax brought it around very well for for what I wanted to achieve after scraping the stock to iron it out some. It's like a hundred years of dirty wax build up in a very short time, glad I found out about it.
This was, however on a rifle that's been around some. A really nice piece of wood probably wouldn't be subjected to such a desperate measure unless it was broken or needed some patch work and blending.

Was it a 'used' toilet seal ring or a new one?
I'm sure that a 'used' ring would have some interesting added ingredients!  :D

(Sorry, I could not help myself).

IIRC - The main ingredient (on a new toilet seal ring) is Bee's Wax.

Bee's Wax is also a large component part of 'Howard's Wax & Feed' and many other antique wood polish and final finish recipes.

Mixtures of Bee's Wax or Carnauba wax are benign wood treatments and nicely restore luster and a slight sheen, when hand rubbed and buffed with a soft cloth.
They help protect wood and are easily thinned or removed with turpentine, mineral spirits, or a turpentine & linseed oil mixture.

Doco's toilet bowl wax treatment really makes the stock look like sh*t!

Not sure if they still are, but toilet ring were made of bee's wax.

I use to go with flaked and then melted bee's wax mixed with a little turps and BLO but realized I was just playing with my....well you know what. One thing is for sure sandpaper is probably the worst enemy of stock wood.

If you can create a barrier to allow some polymerization to occur with most oils that have driers added without successive coats congealing is where you can get some good results especially on a working rifle like this one.


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I used Birchwood Casey's walnut rusty wood stain. It’s water based and the first coat looks terrible but it evens out after a few more. I used it on my ‘03 Springfield sporter [21 inch bbl] rebuild. But this was a sanded and modded scant stock. Turns out nice and reddish. BUT...I would never sand an original stock on a Krag or Springfield unless it was already buggered up and the cartouche was already gone.

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This stock looks about idential to the one I was looking at. Very nice shape, but; the special look is gone.

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Clean it first, have found mineral spirits and cheese cloth or the gray scotch brite pads work well for this.  Apply the MS and rub GENTLY on a small area and wipe off with paper towels.  Dirt and grime are not additives to any finish I know of. Once satisfied it is clean, or as clean as it will get, apply a 3/1 mix of BLO and MS liberally and rub in for 5-10 minutes and wipe off excess. After a day or two apply again but only enough to wet the stock and rub with your bare hand until it feels warm.  Wipe off the excess and repeat daily until you are satisfied with the finish. This will reproduce the shiny finish you see on some stocks, but gloss will depend on how smooth the stock was to start with.  If the stock is extremely dry you can start with a 2/1 mix of BLO/MS which will penetrate better.

How about the red stain?  The stock in my photo has lost the red hue.  And there are dark/light steaks that run with the grain.

I clean my oil finished wood stocks with a oil scrub.

I cut raw linseed oil with turpentine to a 20%/80% mixture, then scrub the wood with a very fine scotch-brite pad.  Remember, you are trying to lift the dirt and grime out of the grain, while not removing any wood in the process. 

Work in small sections at a time, then wipe the oil and lifted grime with a clean cloth.

Once you are finished, wipe the stock down again with a cloth moistened with turpentine, allow the stock to dry for a day or two, then repeat.

When the stock is as clean as you want it, rub in a few coats of linseed oil.

Original 1903 stock after an oil scrub.  After cleaning it up, the handling marks from the individual that it was issued to became visible. :)

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Respectfully, I do appreciate the tip on boiled linseed oil. I have used that on many milsurp rifles. But that last post does not look like the red stain and overall look of an unmolested and uncleaned Krag.

In the late 1920's, Springfield Armory stopped using Logwood Stain, in an economy move. This changed the appearance of the wood on U.S. Military Arms.

Possibly, 'AFJuvat' has a later 1903 Springfield stock in his photo.

FWIW - I had luck getting a good color match with a new walnut forearm that I spliced to a 'cut-down' original Krag stock.

I put a dark walnut stain on the raw walnut wood and quickly followed that with a "Rosewood" stain. It approximated the original wood color.
(Getting the same finish 'sheen', as the original wood, is trickier and a different issue).

I do not know if your original stock can take a 'stain' at this point. There may be 'oils' in the wood that would inhibit the stock from accepting a stain.

Your call. You can test with some stain in a hidden area like the barrel channel.

Attached: 'Before' and 'After' Staining a replacement forearm.

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Quote:

I do not know if your original stock can take a 'stain' at this point. There may be 'oils' in the wood that would inhibit the stock from accepting a stain.

I never though of that.

I did not buy the gun yet.  I may wait for a better example. If it does not look right, I will never be happy with it. 

Nice work on that spliced wood!

If you have found a decent rifle but it just doesn't have that reddish hue I would be hesitant to walk away, good rifles are hard to find at reasonable prices with good mechanics.
Heres some pics of a shooter with plenty of dirt and oil way deep in the stock,

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patched up scraped and washed out some,

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put back together,

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and getting checked out,

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It seems to have a little red from just having some flax seed oil rubbed into it maybe it will get darker with use and time or it was made a little too clean before getting re-oiled, not sure.

butlersrangers wrote on Jun 4^th, 2019 at 6:06pm:

In the late 1920's, Springfield Armory stopped using Logwood Stain, in an economy move. This changed the appearance of the wood on U.S. Military Arms. Possibly, 'AFJuvat' has a later 1903 Springfield stock in his photo. *Edited for brevity.

My 1903 is a RIA SN#40181X.  It was finished at Springfield Armory in 1928, so it is likely post logwood. 

for the record, and at the risk of repeating myself, the finish on the Krag stocks was more than a dunk in linseed oil. It is covered on page 139 or 143 in Joe Farmers book, IIRC.

Mark_Daiute wrote on Jun 9^th, 2019 at 6:40pm:

for the record, and at the risk of repeating myself, the finish on the Krag stocks was more than a dunk in linseed oil. It is covered on page 139 or 143 in Joe Farmers book, IIRC.

I dont have that book.  Could you repeat one more time for my benefit.  And a color match for the stain (logwood?)?

I have found Analine "walnut" die to be a perfect match with the exception of one rifle that has an Italian Walnut stock. I messed that one up and as a result it will probably be with me till I cash in my chips.

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Don't let 5's glib manner fool you, the book is invaluable if you have the least interest in Krags. Joe can be frank and direct but what he does not know about Krags is not yet known and that's a fact.

Mark_Daiute wrote on Jun 10^th, 2019 at 2:00pm:

I have found Analine "walnut" die to be a perfect match with the exception of one rifle that has an Italian Walnut stock. I messed that one up and as a result it will probably be with me till I cash in my chips.   (You need to Login Don't let 5's glib manner fool you, the book is invaluable if you have the least interest in Krags. Joe can be frank and direct but what he does not know about Krags is not yet known and that's a fact.

I googled that die.  I would have thought the "dark wine cherry" or mix with walnut and cherry.  But; if I get the gun I can experiment.  I guess? Then your result with Italian wood is scary.  How to id that wood? Is there a serial number range for the Italian wood?

I found another candidate Krag to purchase. Much better look. Better metal and barrel. More cost. A model 1896 with corresponding fixed windage sights. But oddly, the cartouche is not readable. How did the cartouche get worn down and the gun retained the look? It may look better for the age and use.

'fourbore' - Springfield Armory used approximately 30,000 Italian walnut stock blanks, due to a shortage of cured American black walnut blanks.

From my experience, the Italian wood will usually have 1899, 1900, or 1901 cartouche dates.

The Italian wood is often easy to spot because of its light 'golden' color and distinctive wood grain.

Sometimes, the Italian stocks were darkened with stain, to better match the darker American walnut stocks in a military unit.

In regard to faint cartouche stamps, this may be an indication a stock was skillfully 'scraped' during Armory rifle rebuild/refurbish work.

Attached photos of Italian wood showing:
color, grain, 'tiger stripe' and a distinctive 'crescent' pattern, that is often seen.
Last pictures show an Italian stock with an American walnut hand-guard; this stock has a pronounced 'tiger stripe' and was darkened with stain, long ago.

(p.s. - Mark_Duaite has done some very nice Krag stock restorations. Possibly, his Italian stock 'stain problem' was a forearm-splice using a different walnut species)?

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Is it fair to say we are replacing 100 years of old gun oil with a stain?  That maybe why the petroleum based suggestions I got locally for Mystery Oil or Liquid Gold?  Not to preserve the wood but replicate the abuse of the past?  Not saying, just suggesting...

Italian wood, as an example:

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Butlers is correct, first, it was a different species of wood, second I was not paying attention to colors. I could have pulled it off had I been paying more attention and been less cocky.

It seems restoration of this nature is more an art than science gained from years of trial and error. I am trying to short cut that process and suspect that is not a reasonable expectation.

fourbore wrote on Jun 11^th, 2019 at 10:54am:

It seems restoration of this nature is more an art than science gained from years of trial and error. I am trying to short cut that process and suspect that is not a reasonable expectation.

It's not that hard, just use patience and knowledge and friends with skills.

'fourbore' - The picture you have 'marked' is an Italian walnut stock that appears to have been stained (and maybe varnished or shellacked) at one time.

This was done to some of the Italian stocks (locally, on a company level, I believe) to make them better 'match' the other Krags in the unit.

To me, it appears the added 'finish' has been stripped-off to restore the original appearance of the lighter Italian walnut. The dark area, you have outlined, shows some 'residual stain and sealant'. (I don't believe this wood to be 'oil soaked').

FWIW - I don't think Springfield Armory 'stained' the Italian walnut stocks. It is possible this was done locally by Military Units, after the 'accepted arm' left Springfield Armory.

Fourbore:  I am not sure exactly what you are trying to accomplish with such exactitude. (If that is a word.) I have been collecting and repairing and fixing and shooting Krags for years and have seen such a variety of authentic rifles and carbines that I don't think that there is any one exact tone or finish that isn't generally accepted as "correct" and "original" today. Heck, they're 120+ years old! Consider the extent that these firearms have been used and handled and stored and abused and all of the grease and oil and sweat and dirt they have accumulated over these hundred plus years. I have a huge variation of tones of stain and patina that adorn my Krags and most of them look great! I've even added grease and heat to parts sometimes to add to the patina and aging appearance. You certainly want it to look good without ever trying to deceive someone to think it really is original as from the factory.

I don't think you need the secret formula used at SA back in the day to get what you want.

When I am restoring or repairing or trying to refinish a part of my Krags, I often start with using a dark cherry stain that I have had for 30 years. I don't have a formula or an exact time I leave it on before wiping it off. I let it dry and use some order of BLO and beeswax based wood conditioner to give it a more even tone and nice clean look. I would challenge most people to look at my Krags and definitively discern which ones have been fooled with and which ones are older finishes.

So, give some simple approaches a try and post pictures. I think you'll find it's easier than you think. It's also fun to try!

I agree with 'Whig'. There is a variation seen in the color of American black walnut Krag stocks, even when 'un-messed' with. (photo #1)

The contrast, between Italian walnut and American black walnut, is usually rather apparent. (photo #2)

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anyone try Varathane, available at Home Depot


Quote:

Varathane 241413 1/2 Pint Black Cherry Varathane® Premium Wood Stain     A Soya oil-based premium wood stain that is formulated with a unique base for deeper penetration and premium synthetic pigments for clearer color

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I got the gun and have applied a coat of varthane oil based stain in dark cherry.  Well the color is prefect, but; I think the stain is mostly sitting on the surface. I hoped the oil would mix in with the old oil finish.  The instructions says wipe it off and it dries in one hour? If I wipe it off, there very little staining. I am letting a thin coat sit on the stock and after 24 hours it is tacky.  The only prep was to wipe it down with mineral spirits to remove any recent gun oil the shop may have applied.  The rag looked clean and I did not attempt to remove any finish in any way.

Here is a yesterday and today shot. Keep in mind today is still wet.

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Looks a little darker and shiner. Much nicer.

I think you've found out that your stock has so much old oil and dirt that the wood cells are not porous anymore and won't soak in any more stain. If you put stain on wood like that, it will either just wipe off if its still wet or, if you let it dry too long, it just dries in a sticky layer and doesn't look good.

I'd stay with what you've done. It looks better and actually pretty nice. Otherwise, you'd need to use mineral spirits and clean off a lot of the old oil and strip some of the old stain out to try to refinish it more. That's a ton of trouble and you might not get it looking much better.

Now, put it back together and shoot it!

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Also, on the posting page, if you look next to the "Choose File" button for placing a picture, you see the "Attachments" down arrow. Each time you click on that, you can choose an additional picture to post, up to 5 per posting. Hopefully that helps.

Whig wrote on Jun 14^th, 2019 at 2:51pm:

Looks a little darker and shiner. Much nicer. I think you've found out that your stock has so much old oil and dirt that the wood cells are not porous anymore and won't soak in any more stain. If you put stain on wood like that, it will either just wipe off if its still wet or, if you let it dry too long, it just dries in a sticky layer and doesn't look good. I'd stay with what you've done. It looks better and actually pretty nice. Otherwise, you'd need to use mineral spirits and clean off a lot of the old oil and strip some of the old stain out to try to refinish it more. That's a ton of trouble and you might not get it looking much better. Now, put it back together and shoot it!

Yes. If; this will dry, I will call it done. If not, I dont know.

As for shooting, I am studying up on loading for this.  I am not an avid reloader but; it looks like the way to go here.  I am leaning toward 220 gr Hornady to replicate the original ammo but with a mid-level load.  Of powders listed in Hornady's 9th, I have 4064 and 4831 on hand. Maybe try 39 gr of H4831? Hornady data predicts a modest 1700-1800 fps.  I dont really care for Lee dies, but; I do like the collet crimper. Or good old RCBS.  Starting from scratch there are so many choices. 

My hopefully modest shooting goal is ringing a 10" steel gong off-hand at 100 yards.

(I fixed the attachments, thanks)

Question on the re-assembly.  Is there a recommended torque on the two receiver bolts?  I dont want to be over or under and risk a cracked stock.  If it is not critical, I can use my calibrated right hand :)

I don't know the torque but just hand tighten. If you were really shooting for accuracy, the trigger guard screws should not be over tightened. For what you're doing, I wouldn't worry. I just don't want them to back out when I'm shooting!Be careful not to over tighten the barrel band screws also. Gives the barrel a little breathing room to absorb some vibrations with shooting. Not a big deal, again, with what you are working for.

Don't worry about over loading the reloads with normal loading recommendations. The 30-40 round is very easy on the shoulder and the Krag can handle it fine. You can look through the reloading category of this blog and find lots of good information about reloading. Lots of fun!

Krag Trigger-Guard screws: My practice and rationale .... I could be delusional. (I am willing to learn a better method).

I want my Krag receiver to sit 'flat' on, and support, the thinnest area of the stock. I want my barrel to lay on the bottom of the stock barrel channel. I want to see a 'sliver of day light' between the top of my barrel and the inside of the front barrel band. I want the rear of the magazine 'box' in contact with stock wood.

When I assemble my Krag, I position the barreled-receiver in the stock, put the rear barrel-band on loose, and hand tighten the front guard-screw "Tight".

I then tighten the rear barrel-band so the sling-swivel is tightly pinched, but movable.
I assemble the front barrel-band observing that the barrel has not lifted up from the stock in the muzzle area..

Lastly, I put the rear guard-screw in, making it just firm.

IMHO - The rear screw can do mischief.

It can torque the barrel up off the channel.

It can cause the receiver tang to pressure and spread the surrounding stock wood, like a 'wedge'.

Thanks Butler.  The stock is almost dry.  I have a long honey dew list tomorrow, so; I anticipate re-assembly Sunday afternoon.  I try and pay attention to what you said as I go.

Hi fourbore,

Kind of off topic...

But do you by chance shoot big bore rifles???

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Big bores have always been a fascination for me.  I dont have a 4, but I do have various smokeless upto 505 gibbs. I recently acquired an 8 gauge double shotgun.  I also played with a not so old, 6 bore (ball gun) muzzle loader for a while.

Way cool fourbore!

And I thought my .458 SOCOM was a big round.

New to the big bore world myself but I also have a fascination for the big stuff...I just recently purchased an Ingram of Scotland .500 BPE.

I'm probably compensating for one of my many short comings! :-?

Good luck on your restoration project!

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I'd like to see a 'Bench Rest Shooter' touch-off that Four-Bore!

BTW - 'Local Boy', that's a mighty nice looking .500 BPE. I am sure that it is a useful rifle in Alaska.
Only 'cock' one hammer at a time (and forget those lock-mounted 'safeties', unless, they prevent accidental snagging & cocking of the hammers in the bush).

How about more pictures? That rifle deserves its own seperate Thread.
It would be intriguing to know the 'history' of your double-rifle.

.... Ouch! I am remembering in the movie, "A Boy 10 Feet Tall", when Edward G. Robinson, portraying a sage Old Big Game Hunter/Diamond Smuggler, rests his back against a tree as he demonstrates firing his trusty big bore gun! (Hollywood has a lot of bad ideas. I hope no one has been stupid enough to follow that 'example').

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