I have a steel but plate that will not yield up its screws to, so far, penetrating oil, heat, and taps with a small hammer.  Any suggestions for what to try next?  I want to clean up an 1873 Trapdoor without using abrasives; I only want to remove years of dirt, paint spatter and general scrapes and, what appears to be heat or even some small fire damage to some areas.  Most of the screws turn easily, but the rear sight and butt screws are firmly in place.

After I get screws out, the plan will be to soak the metal parts as has been discussed on this site before.  Wood plans are still in the future and after I can remove the metal.

A few suggestions. One is to just leave them in place and clean up around them. You can really fight with some of these things and wind up scratching or ruining something you don't want to scratch or ruin.

I have recut the screw head slot deeper with a Dremel tool and file before which gives me much greater "purchase" or grip on the screw head for breaking loose. You definitely need the correct screwdriver for the job. It has to be correct fitting and have a sharp profile so it will hold good.

The penetrating oil may take a couple days to do its job. Keep dumping that on. Sometimes some carefully applied heat can coax the screw loose but be careful with the torch around the wood and the penetrating oil if you try it. This is not highly advised but can help.

If the slot is buggered a little for the counter clockwise turning, one trick is to try to tighten the screw a tiny bit by turning it clock wise just slightly. This can be easier if the clock wise sides of the slot are not buggered up as much. This might allow you to actually break the rust loose then you can unscrew it counter clockwise.

Good luck. Others may have some more suggestions.

Thank you for the tips.  I've done most of the things you have suggested already except for allowing the time you described.  I haven't used penetrating oil in years and I don't even know if I have the right product.  I'm using 3 in 1 now, but I think what I used to use was just called Penetrating Oil.  I also don't have the best screw driver.  My heat source has been only a hair dryer on a modest setting.  I'll give the soaking more time and try a hotter setting.

Your suggestion of a Dremel tool is a good one, too.  I think I can borrow one and try that.  I can also grind the screw driver blade to fit a little better. Thanks again for the suggestions. You've been a help.

Good luck and keep us informed.

'Liquid Wrench', (or 'Kroil' if you have it), will penetrate a lot better.

An electric soldering iron, held on the screw-head, will give you a manageable, local, 'heat source'.

You are probably 'fighting' old hardened grease, swollen wood fibers, and some deformation of the screw-head.

A sharp awl or icepick point neatly cleans the bottom corners of the screwdriver slots, allowing a better/deeper screwdriver fit.

Some screw-head slots are slightly 'dished', preventing a square screwdriver blade-tip from evenly touching bottom.

Radius the blade tip to match.

My favorite penetrating concoction is 50% power steering fluid and 50% acetone. My personal experience is it works better than any of  the commercial market offerings. I keep it in a sealed mason jar so the acetone does not evaporate.

I call it Rust Eater.

Zgun

Lord forgive me for posting this...

I've even gone so far as to use an impact screw driver to remove butt plate screws.

No damage to the screws or stock when I've don it... but it sure gets your heart to fluttering when performing the procedure.

Last resort kind of stuff when nothing else works.

That's why it's best to sometimes leave well enough alone.

Leaving it alone wasn't an option for this particular rifle, so your suggestion about waiting turned out to be the best solution.  After a few days and one light treatment of 13oz Plumb at each compass point, the screw came out "like butta".  Now I just need to handle some paint spots and some dirt, and I think I might  have a relatively honest, maybe, Indian owned piece.  I'm trying to fight the urge to use any stains, although the wood could certainly benefit from some sort of protection.

Pictures will beget feedback.

A cleaning with mineral spirits or turpentine is usually benign.

A 50/50 mix of Linseed Oil and Turpentine is an old and established wood treatment.

I like and use "Howard's Feed & Wax", as a final coat. It gives a pleasant luster.

I use the Howard's Wax all the time on my Krags and other mil surp firearms. Works great and helps restore moisture to the dry aged wood.

Post pictures when you can. Good job!

'Whig' - Is your 'Howard's Wax' a different product than 'Howard's Wax & Feed'?

BTW - Some Gun Stocks glow nicely after a rub down with PLEDGE furniture polish.


FWIW - On some gun forums, a few contributors go positively Ballistic at the mention of Wax & Feed or furniture polish.

The more they rant the less I think they know. I am given the impression that some highly vocal guys have not seen a wide array of well preserved antique guns.

I don't regard repairing neglect, removing paint and modern finishes, or stabilizing corrosion, as destroying an arm's history.

Same thing - I just didn't feel like typing the whole thing. I love Beeswax because we used to have honey bees when I was a kid and I have always loved the smell of pure bees wax and the benefits it gives for wood care. I have used it for years and it really moisturizes and brings a nice sheen to the wood. So much wood is overly dry and cracks so easily that something like Howard's stuff helps a ton. You have to shake it well to make sure it mixes or you don't get the full benefit of all of it.

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I haven't ignored your requests for photos.  I have some taken, but when I finally stumbled in to a way to post them, the message said that the files were too large.  Now I have to see what's involved with reducing the size of each photo, but my IT person is in the garden working on her world of joy.  Our agreement has been this last 54 years that I don't criticize her time in the plants and she doesn't criticize my time in my world. 

I have posted the first photos of my project and as I look at them, it makes me wonder what I was thinking.  Actually, I have tried the turpentine as you suggested and the first go around seemed promising.  Most of the paint is gone, but the dirt and is still pretty strong.  I guess I'll just keep at it a while and find some patience.  In addition to the cartouche, I did find what looks like the remains of a Circle P proof which I didn't expect to see.

I'll post some more "before pictures" later if you'd like.

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If you do not mind, what is the serial number of your (I assume) early 1873 carbine? I MIGHT have some info on it in my files. Thanks.

Dick,

  l wish I could reply with an answer, this piece, as you might surmise from the overall condition, is very short on numbers.   I'll post a photo of the receiver so you can see, but the details may be unknowable unless you know of some recovery method.
  What I know is that this has the 2 position tumbler, the plain butt, the early knurling on the hammer, the first markings on the trapdoor and the long wrist stock.  What it doesn't have is an early barrel.  The current one has the proofs from the later years and a rifle sight. And the bore is better than you would expect for the amount of wear on the carbine.
  The "feel" of the piece is what makes me think it had belonged to an Indian at some point.  The saddle ring and bar have been simply removed with no interest shown in 'prettying it up'.  The best I can tell you is that part of the number seems to 6980 or _6980, or 6880. 

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From a slight distance, I see 6980 pretty clearly. Just my observation, though. Lots of honest wear. What a history that Springfield could tell!

I can see 6980 as well.

FWIW, that is not a highly-populated carbine range. Closest I could find in Dick Branum's HUGE card file (bigger than SRS) was 6832. There were a number of closer entries, including 6950, but all were shown as rifles. That MIGHT explain the later barrel. They ALL have stories, and it would surely be interesting to know that one.

Thanks for sharing.

Some more photos.  The barrel is a carbine barrel from a later period than the carbine itself.  The carbine looks like it was outdoors for most of its life and the wrist looks like it the chief method of carry by sweaty hands.  The only actual rifle part is the rear sight which is a first model.  I wonder if the carbine was being repaired rather than maintained, if the then current owner knew or cared about the difference in the sight.

So far, the cleaning is encouraging.  I know this will never look like a fine museum piece, but it looks like it has served a useful life for someone.

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A puzzle to be sure.

The barrel, though "wrong", looks to have been there a LONG time. The sight appears to be quite a bit more recent, and the screws, especially the rear one, do not look to be TD screws? Who knows how it came to be, over the last 144 years?

It will look great on the wall, though. If it were mine, I'd look long and hard for a bar & ring, and a rear sight (probably an 1879) of JUST the correct patina - NOT to try and pass it off as a 1st model, at all, just to make it a bit more complete.

Dick, I don't understand why you think the sight is much more recent than the rifle.  On page 16-17 of Al's "Trade Edition", re shows this same sight in both the carbine and rifle versions.  It is described as the Model 1873.  The "V P and the Eagle" proof marks on the barrel, began at about 40000 per the book and the sight remained until the Model 1877 came along.  The range numbers on the M1873 were on the right side of the base (1 to 4 for the rifle and 1 to 5 for the carbine) and with the M1877 and later, the numbers were on the left side.  The slide on the rifle was graduated to 1100 yards (#11) and the carbine to 1200 yards (#12).  This sight retains those features without the correct screws as you point out. 

I have another carbine with the same M1873 carbine sight base, and slotless screws, but with a broken spring and leaf.  It is numbered to 5 on the right and except for the number of steps, is the same as this rifle sight. (photo).  That carbine is from a later period - probably arsenal altered - and has the low arch, more recent marks on the door, and the butt door. It does still have the oval cartouche and early band.
I agree with you that I could replace the sight, but with I will use a M73 Carbine - they're not super hard to find, right now although harder than the rifle version.  I also agree that these screws are wrong and I will correct those.  I'm guessing that this barrel was changed after the piece left the military and whoever changed it, probably was as unconcerned about slotted or slotless screws as they were about the proof marks on the later barrel. He probably used whatever he could find that "looked" right, and found a rifle version.  In any case, I'd prefer not to settle for a later sight.  I will certainly keep the rifle sight even if I replace it with a carbine.
Finding an early bar and ring will be tougher.  I may have to settle for the a later version for this part, but for the time being, I'd rather leave it as the owner left it.

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Not sure if it's the correct one?... but there's a saddle bar ring on EBay:

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That's a good eye.  It's the right style, but I think it is a reproduction.  That's not totally out of the question, but it appears to be a reproduction of the later version.  Quick check for this one is the visible seam in the ring.  You won't see one on an original.  This could turn out to be the classic example of finding one too soon after you decide to look.  You find one right away and then don't see another for a long time. 

I will probably pass on this, but I really appreciate you mentioning one for sale.  Thank you!!

butlersrangers wrote on Jun 19^th, 2019 at 2:12pm:

Pictures will beget feedback. A cleaning with mineral spirits or turpentine is usually benign. A 50/50 mix of Linseed Oil and Turpentine is an old and established wood treatment.

I started using some turpentine and am hopeful for the results.  They certainly got rid of the paint quicker than the mineral spirits. I also picked up some Linseed Oil as well.  Thanks for the information.  Your stock work is legendary for me!

Whig wrote on Jun 24^th, 2019 at 7:12pm:

From a slight distance, I see 6980 pretty clearly. Just my observation, though. Lots of honest wear. What a history that Springfield could tell!

Thank you for confirmation!  I was getting dizzy trying to look at the forest in so many pictures that I couldn't see the trees anymore.

I've got one really nice condition Springfield Trapdoor rifle that I bought to compliment my interest in and collection of Krags. I learned about it and bought nice black powder ammo to shoot in it and it was fun.

But, I am mostly fascinated in how closely they are to the subsequent Krag design because of such similarity of features.

Your carbine shows off many of those features that Springfield Armory continued in the Krag design.

Thanks for sharing!

The eBay bar & ring are not a compatible set anyhow - bar is late while ring (highly suspect) is early. Al Frasca has the best parts.

When I said the sight was "later" than the barrel and receiver, I was referring to apparent date of application, based on wear and color - not design/model. However such decisions are better made in the flesh, as the camera/lighting can play tricks. The barrel appears to be a plausible/possible in or immediately-post-service replacement, whereas that sight could have been added in, say 1920.  My suggestion that a later (but heavily worn and brown) sight be applied was based on the later barrel, but, you absolutely are correct that the 1873 stepped sight DID continue past the period of proof application. The fact that it is the rifle version precludes it being done at SA.

I think that someone who was not aware of all of the little nuances was trying to mock-up an early carbine and, for some reason, never finished the project, which presents you with a fun opportunity to pick up the torch. Enjoy!