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Message started by Knute1 on Aug 1st, 2019 at 3:03am

Title: Serial Number Question
Post by Knute1 on Aug 1st, 2019 at 3:03am
Last year I had done an independent search for total Krags built going only by Ordnance Reports and Springfield Armory Expenditure reports. I came up with 476,230 total built with the last ones built in fiscal year ending 6/30/1907 (22 caliber rifles totaling 341). Prior to that fiscal year Krags had stopped being produced by November of 1903 (none in 22 caliber up to that date), again according to an Ordnance Report. I have seen a 22 caliber Krag for sale at RIA with a serial number of 476,006. Another member of this forum has a 22 with serial number 476,551. The difference between these serial numbers is 545 (but only 341 built). And yet I hear that there are significantly reported higher serial numbers than these, in .30 Gvt. There were some .30 Gvt rifles converted to .22 caliber to muddy things just a little with a barrel change.

So there was obviously many more receivers manufactured than rifles/carbines built. And receivers were used randomly out of bins when assembling guns as Fred G had replied in another post. So my question is:
When were the serial numbers applied to the receivers?

Forum link to rifles built:
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Forum link on 22 caliber gallery guns:
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Thanks for any info.

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Dick Hosmer on Aug 1st, 2019 at 7:04am
The extractor trip pin hole is drilled through the stamping, so that tells you that they appear to have taken receivers at random, but I'm not sure whether the actual number itself was already on or not. What also needs to be understood that SA did NOT assemble rifles in rigid order.

This issue goes back to the trapdoor, and I'm fairly sure that such procedures changed very little. Out of ALL of the "limited production" TDs, ONLY the M1888 "positive cam" rifles had anything even approaching consecutive numbers - EVERY other off beat type spanned thousands (tens of thousands in the case of the M188XRB) of numbers.

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by FredC on Aug 1st, 2019 at 2:50pm
"When were the serial numbers applied to the receivers?"
We have had discussions on this before, except for a few proof marks applied with a single letter punch I think the serial number, model, and Sringfield Armory were done before heat treat. The larger more difficult to make stamps would have lasted longer on the soft steel before heat treatment. I would guess the numbers of some of the receivers scrapped during and post heat treat would have been replaced. With an occasionally duplication.
After too long after any scrapped numbers may not have been replaced. Maybe that is why some serial numbers are higher than the total produced?
I was not there and this is only guess work on my part and I have been wrong many times.
We saw the case hardening boxes on the floor in recent photos. Was more than one receiver done to a box? I can not see how they would be done in order, with no number on the box. I would guess cleaning and inspection was done after unpacking with no attention given to the numbers unless a scrap one was found.

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Knute1 on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 3:27am
Thanks for the info above. I'll still be looking for Krag serial number info and will post if anything is found. The closest so far is from a document about the "Affray At Brownsville, Texas". There was much written about Krags in this incident (I haven't seen what this was all about yet). But I believe these are serial numbers of rifles given to members of the 25th Infantry and are for the 1903 Springfield starting on page 1323 from around 1907.

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Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Rcat7147 on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 11:42am
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A rifle that participated in all that mess would be a really intriguing artifact in many ways.

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Whig on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 2:01pm
Joe Farmer (   (You need to Login) has a great discussion in his Krag book on non-linear production of Krags and serial numbers. Instead of trying to "reinvent the wheel" just buy his ridiculously low-priced, heavily researched book on Krags and read it.

(I get no kick backs from this recommendation! It's just really great!)

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Knute1 on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 10:03pm
I am not sure if I'm intentionally following Farmer's footsteps or anybody else. More so, I am trying to prove things for myself and hope to find some things not yet uncovered by others. In a way, I am using this forum to document what I find. Hopefully, to the interest of some others, also. If I get a Mallory, Brophy or Farmer book I am afraid that it will pull me down their paths and not be a "free thinker". When I run into too many dead ends I will then seek out these books. Until then, you will have to put up with possibilities of me finding things already found by others. Even a blind squirrel can find a nut now and then and I think I have found a few thus far. Hope to find more.

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Dick Hosmer on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 11:18pm
I laud you for your individual approach, but it's also nice to have a framework of basically accepted facts to hang the subsequent work on. Mallory, Trophy, and Poyer were "conventional" authors. Joe Farmer is of a different generation, and so TOTALLY different - and, while I do not "like" his writing STYLE, his work is absolutely first rate, plus, and his book is a MUST read, as it corrects some previously published misinterpretations.

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Knute1 on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 12:31am
I do intend on getting Farmer's book at some point. Better yet, I'd like to meet him and buy the book in person as I believe he lives within 70 miles of me. Then have a discussion with him, but I'm not sure of his temperament. And I'd like to show him my 1892/1896 "magazine" rifle for his comments. Just unsure at this time on how to make it happen.
Presently, I have Poyer's and Dorsett's books.

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Whig on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 1:03am
Gosh, Knute- he's not a serpent. Read his book, website, whatever but to meet him and share some Krag knowledge and rifles, e-mail him and ask if you can stop over.

The worst he can do is hiss at you and  sting you with his venomous forked tongue!

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Knute1 on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 1:43am
He's gotta fork tongue???

:-/

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Knute1 on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 2:02am
Here is the kind of thing I'm looking for. A listing of Krag rifles with serial numbers and where they were. This list of Model 1898 magazine rifle serial numbers are of those on the Pribolof Islands of Alaska as accounted for in 1911. It could be of interest to have a data base including this type of info. Who knows, maybe somebody has a Krag with one of these serial numbers and it could give them some history of their gun.

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Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Dick Hosmer on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 4:52am

Knute1 wrote on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 12:31am:
I do intend on getting Farmer's book at some point. Better yet, I'd like to meet him and buy the book in person as I believe he lives within 70 miles of me. Then have a discussion with him, but I'm not sure of his temperament. And I'd like to show him my 1892/1896 "magazine" rifle for his comments. Just unsure at this time on how to make it happen.
Presently, I have Poyer's and Dorsett's books.



Joe lives in Madison WI. I, even though I live in CA, have been a guest in his home, got the chance to visit about ten years ago (pre-book, though he was working on it) while on a trip to Chicago - utterly fascinating guy to talk to, and a gracious host. He does march to his own drum, however, and does not suffer fools. I believe that he would be MOST approving of your go-it-alone style. Contact him and say hello - feel free to mention my name. He no longer participates in forums such as this (refer to suffering above) but I'd suspect he monitors them. He is retired now, so should have time to chat.

Title: Re: Serial Number Question
Post by Knute1 on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 1:14pm
Dick, thanks for the info.

I know this parallels the other post about "New Database", which was started before this one. I still would like to contribute to any such database that gets started. I am starting to tabulate some serial numbers as far as documented locations where they were used. It can then be provided whenever this database has been established.

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