Any of you guys reload for 8mm lebel?

It's on my 'bucket list'.... interesting historic cartridge! I need to get a set of Lee Dies.

.... another project on the back-burner .... restore Berthier.

(This particular rifle has the updated "N" chamber, but, shoots well with Prvi 8mm Lebel. I've had a couple of Berthier carbines. Their recoil was noticeable).

'Gunboards' has a good French rifle Forum with lots of knowledge. 'Patrick' is awesome. If you dig around on that forum, you will find reloading data. The Prvi ammo seems to work well in all French 8mm Lebel arms.

I need to dab my sights with some Radium Paste for night shooting!

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Culpeper wrote on Aug 10^th, 2019 at 2:30pm:

Any of you guys reload for 8mm lebel?

I load for my 86/93 Lebel with "Balle N" chamber.

Lee dies
.348 Win. or Graf/Prvi brass.
.323" bullets (though .327", like Balle N, might be better)

I found published data generally over-conservative, eventually settling on 48-49 grains of non-cannister (surplus) IMR4895 with the Sierra 175 spitzer for a MV of ~2550 fps with decent 100-yard groups from a pretty dark bore. Since this was with a non-cannister lot of powder, this charge can't be applied safely to cannister-grade 4895.

Below information consists of software estimates from QuickLOAD set for a maximum average pressure of 50,000 psi (CIP piezo). Estimated velocities appear substantially higher than what I chronographed with my non-cannister 4895 loads. Note that this listing is merely of estimates and doesn't represent tested load data!

Cartridge          : 8 mm Lebel M/93 (8x50R)
Bullet             : .323, 175, Sierra SP 2410
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.808 inch or 71.33 mm
Barrel Length      : 31.5 inch or 800.1 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 50000 psi, or 344 MPa

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

See next post for estimates -

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Ramshot BigGame                    100.0     55.4     3.59    2958    99.6    50000    7089   1.411  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                            94.8     50.8     3.29    2935   100.0    50000    6545   1.401  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15                  93.7     51.9     3.37    2924    99.3    50000    6869   1.429  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031                            93.5     48.4     3.14    2910   100.0    50000    6083   1.426  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320                            95.6     52.1     3.38    2907    99.5    50000    6628   1.413  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895                       96.1     51.5     3.34    2887   100.0    50000    6269   1.421  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET                      95.8     51.4     3.33    2877    99.2    50000    6579   1.427  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064                            96.5     50.5     3.27    2870    99.3    50000    6434   1.433  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150                    102.1     53.4     3.46    2866   100.0    50000    6253   1.438  ! Near Maximum !

Oh I know about back burner projects.  Have a Remington Berthier that I have not shot since I bought it.  Heck.  I purchased ammo for it two years before I got the Remington only because my Chauchat project is on a further back burner.

Rule number 𝛑 - Buy the ammo before you buy the gun.

Not sure what rule it falls under but I usually buy the bayonet before the military surplus rifle.

That's Rule #22, when you have to get a rifle to fit your bayonet. I think Joseph Heller wrote a book about it.

Are you thinking of forming a French Foreign Legion team for the vintage match at Camp Perry? 

I confess when not shooting, collecting or reloading Krag stuff, my other interest is French Foreign Legion. Just started reloading for the 8 MM Lebel.

CAT man

That could be brutal in Ohio's July heat. But, some of us would make it "FUN".

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Cat Man wrote on Aug 15^th, 2019 at 3:26pm:

Are you thinking of forming a French Foreign Legion team for the vintage match at Camp Perry?  I confess when not shooting, collecting or reloading Krag stuff, my other interest is French Foreign Legion. Just started reloading for the 8 MM Lebel. CAT man

Now that is a great idea! I wonder if the cmp would let me use a semi only chauchat?


.

According to some pundits, the .30-06 version of the Chauchat is a ...... well ..... 'Single-Shot'.

Hey now that would give me a good reason to dust off the ole MAS-36/51 and MAS-49/56.

Does anyone know if Camp Perry has a rifle grenade category???

I shoot mild cast bullet loads in my two Berthiers.  174 grain .324 bullet over 10 grains of Unique.  About 1230 fps.  Easy on shoulder and steel targets.   :)

Who made the mold?  I'll check it out.

Something I've been curious about: 

Looking at Chuck's picture at first, I was wondering why this bullet looked like it had a tail, but I chalked it up to a weird shadow or something else I just couldn't see.  However, this has become an itch I just haven't been able to scratch... so I'm asking:  Does this bullet have some weird knife edge which extends into the case?  Why does this bullet look like that?  Or... is it just that my eyes aren't seeing something?

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Paul: It's a piece of 'trench art'. The cartridge has been made into a Letter Opener.

See, this is why I ask - I would have never guessed that, LOL!

Paul:
The top cartridge is the earlier type of round with a 'flat-nosed' projectile for safe use in the Lebel Rifle's tubular magazine; this particular cartridge was manufactured by Kynoch in England.

The 'letter-opener' was made from a 'Balle D' round, made in 1916. The base of the 'Balle D' cartridge has a circular groove surrounding the primer. This prevents spitzer bullet tips from contacting cartridge primers in the Lebel tubular magazine.

The bottom cartridge is post WW-1 and requires arms to have an altered chamber for a larger diameter case-neck.  It can be used in arms stamped with a large "N" on the receiver-ring.

See, this is why I LOVE KCA!  I learn something new here every day!

I reload 8mm Lebel.

Inherited thousands of Balle N rounds mounted on Hotchkiss feeding strips.

Unfortunately, every round I tried to shoot in my N chambered Berthier M16 carbine just went 'click'.

So I have been pulling bullets, saving the powder, and reloading it into new Prvi Partizan brass.

The original powder charge in the cases varied between 43.0 - 44.5 grains across 50 samples.  When loaded to 43 - 44 grains, the recoil was best described as "unpleasant", and after 10 rounds, "painful".

I've currently loaded charges down to 38 grains with no significant change to POA/POI on a 100 yard range, but there was a noticeable reduction in recoil, so I may try some with even lower charges.

Attached some photos

Picture 1 is a pulled Bale N bullet measuring 0.3275" in diameter (they all measured close to this)

Picture 2 is a bunch of pulled bullets

Picture 3 is the charge weight from one round

Picture 4 is the bullet and powder from one round

Picture 5 is the collected Lebel powder.  When I was done pulling, the powder was transferred to an empty powder jar and marked.   :)

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Flake powders are generally high nitroglycerine powders.

I'm not in favor of transferring an 'unknown' propellant, into a new cartridge case, and thinking everything is 'OK'. To me it is false economy.

I had a (6.5X53mm Rimmed) Dutch Mannlicher carbine and a box of 1930's vintage Dutch military ammo, at one time.

I did not want to shoot the old corrosive Berdan primed ammo. I made replacement Brass out of .303 British and .30-40 Krag cases.

I pulled the bullets from some of the Dutch cases, directly dumped the whole charge of square-flaked powder into a new case, and seated a pulled bullet.

At the Range, I fired the first 'reloaded' round, which produced a nice hole in the Bull's-eye.

When I slowly opened the bolt and withdrew the fired case, to inspect it, the 'spent' Boxer primer fell out of the expanded primer-pocket.

It had not been my intention to "Re-Proof" the Hemburg Arsenal metallurgy!

I was Lucky. I dismantled all the remaining "reloads" and burned the powder in my leaf-pile.

After this experience all future loads were "worked up" from Starting Loads of known propellants.