Hello, recently my aunt gave me a rifle that was my uncles fathers. Its an 1898 serial number 387xxx. Was given some good info from some people on the national gun forum and they steered me in this direction. originally I was just looking for some quick info on value to sell it but after reading a lot about it I am going to keep it. One guy said "I agree that you may have an 1898 carbine and it certainly looks cosmetically right, although the overall length appears to be out by about an inch, which could point to a Bannerman or later "conversion" Just curious if anyone has any more info.

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Hello and welcome to the KCA forum. You are very fortunate to have inherited a wonderful family treasure like a Krag. Most of us have bought the Krags we have and don't have the personal family history like you have with yours. No matter what the value may be, your family historical value is priceless!

Briefly, the 1898 Krag carbines were made in a much lower serial number range than yours is. Authentic M1898 carbines were mostly in the 115,000-135,000 range. There are a few that are outside this range but not by too much. Dating exactly when a Krag rifle or carbine was made is a science unto itself. The barrel of a true carbine is exactly 22 inches measured from the front of the closed bolt to the end of the muzzle. We usually measure this by closing the bolt and dropping a cleaning rod down the barrel until it hits the front of the bolt and measuring the cleaning rod at the muzzle end.

You are correct that many rifle barrels, which are 30 inches, were cut down to resemble carbines. Krag rifles were very cheap in the 1920s and 1930s and people bought them and cut them down for hunting purposes. Bannerman and others were known to do this frequently.

Sometimes, a rifle barrel was removed and a carbine barrel was installed. This could preserve the front sight instead of replacing the front sight with an aftermarket sight.

Your rear sight looks like an authentic M1896 carbine sight which is marked with a "c" above the "19" (for 1900 yards) as well as on the right side of the sight which might be covered by the hand guard. We would need more pictures of the sight to confirm if it is real. These sights, by themselves, are worth north of $500. They are hard to find. If your rifle has been in the family for decades, it is probably authentic.

Please post more pictures of the front sight, rear sight, receiver with all markings and bolt. Can you see what condition the bore is in? Also, is there a set of cleaning rods in the butt of the stock?

Congrats again!

Also, we need a picture of the front of the stock to see if the stock is a cut down rifle stock or an authentic carbine stock that was put on your Krag.

Many Krags, whether they are original military Krags or cut down rifles, are great shooting firearms. If you aren't comfortable to do so yourself, have a gunsmith examine your Krag to see if it looks in good condition to fire. Get some 30-40 Krag ammunition and try it out. You'll love shooting it!

Keep us informed and we'll wait for the pictures.

This shows the front of a carbine stock.

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Thank you for the reply. I will post more pictures of the sights soon. As far as the cleaning rods in the butt, I don't believe this has it. I did read online about that and was somewhat confused that this one doesn't have it. These are the only other pics I have available at this time.

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Sorry, but that serial number is WAY out of whack to be an original 1898 carbine. Barring the extremely unlikely case where it was an "official" repair, at some unknown point in time, the gun was apparently assembled outside the control of SA.

The stock appears to be a correct carbine stock, albeit of M1899 (32") form, and the rear sight appears to be a genuine M1896C - all good points. Original 30" M1898C stocks are very scarce, if not rare. The rear sight is, as stated, quite valuable on its' own.

As it sits, it would have to be evaluated as an M1899 carbine. It is in very nice shape, and if the bore is good should be a really fun shooter.

Interesting butt-plate, it has no butt-trap door.

Did someone re-shape an early model 1892 or cadet butt-plate?

Heck, the stock would have to have been altered or cut to accommodate that butt plate.

Mikey- can you remove the butt plate and take a picture of what the stock looks like underneath?

The mystery deepens...

Pic of buttplate was not up when I posted.

That looks to be the "intermediate" plate (heavy weight with curved toe) between the original flat thin plate of the first 1892s, and the common final type seen on almost all Krags today. I have one on my late 1892 (or Joe Farmer's "magazine rifle") s/n 20196.

I'll bet the inletting beneath the plate is "normal". If it isn't, we have a bit of a puzzle.

Thanks Dick for identifying the Butt-Plate. That is an unusual one.

IMHO - This makes it very likely MikeyC's heirloom Krag is a non-arsenal 'parts gun' that contains some very desirable parts!

Very likely it was assembled by Stokes Kirk or Bannerman's.

Do you have a close up pic of the left side of the receiver?  Maybe 1898 is really 1899 under good light.

You read my mind Culp! 

I agree with Chuck - Bannerman or Stoke's Kirk... OR, somewhere along the line, some parts were replaced by someone outside of SA!

The OP's magazine-gate may be from a model 1896 action.

(BTW - Whig's picture has the rear-sight on backwards).

butlersrangers wrote on Aug 19^th, 2019 at 11:56am:

...(BTW - Whig's picture has the rear-sight on backwards).

Looks okay to me.  Big end to the front, right?

I don't know.  Something about the band doesn't sit well with me.  It looks like the band is not sliding to the rear all the way over the step on the end of the spring.  I have a carbine stock like that where some chucklehead cut off the stock in the middle of the band and then went "Oh Crapski!" and glued the piece back on.  This sets the spring back just enough to not allow the spring to retain the band.  The difference is the width of a saw blade or just a bit shy of it.

Maybe its just me and my old eyes.



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I see it too, but sometimes it's hard to tell where the fault lies, as springs get jammed in their slot and won't rise. I think that a little TLC would fix that issue pretty quickly.

Rear sights on 1896 carbines from KCA pictures:

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Sorry, my mistake. Mr Culpeper is right. Whig's rear-sight is installed correctly.

I just got confused with the carbine lying on that Razzle-Dazzle carpet.

IMHO - The OP's hand-guard appears a bit too far forward. This likely is tilting the top of the model 1899 barrel-band to the front, preventing the barrel-band from properly seating.

Culpeper wrote on Aug 19^th, 2019 at 3:50am:

Do you have a close up pic of the left side of the receiver?  Maybe 1898 is really 1899 under good light.

Found a pic I took of the model number when we found the gun in her closet while helping her pack to sell her house. As far as the other pics requested I will get them up as soon as possible. The gun is still at my Aunts house so I cannot take pictures.

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Thanks for the picture. Definitely NOT M1899 carbine. Still need, when you get a chance, a picture of the front sight and barrel measurement.

Thanks.

There is no mistaking the number on that receiver.  I just had to ask because some times it is a real nightmare to read whether it is an 8 or a 9.

got a bunch more pictures today. bare with me while I get them all up in case you just see this first post. With the bolt closed the barrel measures 22in. took the butt plate off and the spot for the cleaning rods are there. Was disappointed that there where no rides inside but was cool non the less waiting to see what was behind the plate. Now that I know how everything works (watched a bunch of you tube), the safety and everything else seems to function as it should. 

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Front sight pics

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Pictures look huge on my computer. hope its not that way for everyone. Sorry if it is.

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Here are some more of the barrel band

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Muzzle and sight look legit, but that s/n is just not possible - that HAS to be a replaced receiver, or an "assembled" gun. It did NOT come out of the ORIGINAL assembly process (almost slipped up and said "down the line") as you see it today. Three choices:

1. A VERY unusual arsenal, or in-service, "repair"

2. An "in-house" Bubba

3. An outhouse Bubba (including Bannerman et al)

Back in the day, they were TOOLS - and when they were broken they were repaired -nobody cared about 21st century "collector originality".

Here are some butt pics

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over all length of the gun is 41 1/4

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You do have a legitimate carbine barrel with a Springfield Armory installed front-sight base.

Your front-sight blade appears to be the correct height for the model 1896 carbine rear-sight. Your blade may be stamped with a small "C"; this is stamped low, (out of sight and hidden by the base).

If it were mine, I would put a regular Krag butt-plate on it (and keep the early one with the carbine as part of the mystery carbine story).

You have a great Krag carbine, however it got this way, and can be proud of owning it. The M1896C rear sight is a fantastic part of this carbine. Much rarer than a lot of people realize. Many authentic arsenal M1896 carbines need the authentic sight. You can't find them for sale and if you ever see one sold separately, they usually go for $600 or more now.

So, thanks for sharing. The extra large pictures are fine because they are clear and crisp, better than blurry AND big.

Ready now to shoot it and enjoy.

That butt plate is interesting

Second pattern 1892, but I've NEVER understood the "why".

That is the plate on 20196, which is otherwise 1892, with changes to date (cutaway bolt rib, bevelled cocking piece, etc.). The stock is crudely relieved to clear the unfinished cover-plate lugs.

Were some guns assembled hastily for some reason, not waiting for the full implementation of the improvement? Seems odd for a piece with an 1896 sight, and very clear JSA/1896 cartouche. We know they were held up for the sights - why not do the butt properly at the same time?

Another mystery.

In addition to the early butt-plate, 'MikeyC' has a model 1896 magazine-gate on his model 1898 Krag.

IMHO - This further substantiates it is a 'parts gun' and not U.S. Armory or Arsenal work.

But .... Them's some Mighty Nice Parts!

(The big pictures were getting to me - I took the liberty of simplifying. I hope you don't mind).

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Whig wrote on Aug 18^th, 2019 at 9:18pm:

Also, we need a picture of the front of the stock to see if the stock is a cut down rifle stock or an authentic carbine stock that was put on your Krag. Many Krags, whether they are original military Krags or cut down rifles, are great shooting firearms. If you aren't comfortable to do so yourself, have a gunsmith examine your Krag to see if it looks in good condition to fire. Get some 30-40 Krag ammunition and try it out. You'll love shooting it! Keep us informed and we'll wait for the pictures. This shows the front of a carbine stock.

I finally had a chance to have a gunsmith look at it. He said everything mechanically is great and is safe to shoot. He did how ever mention that there is not much rifling left so it may not be very accurate. now to get it to a range and see. Thank you everyone again for all your input.

Heck shoot and find out.  Perhaps it'll surprise you. 

Shooting a krag is heaven even if it is minute-of-man accurate at fifty feet.

haven't been around for a while but I finally got it to the range a couple weeks ago. indoor range at 25yds I was still hitting pretty darn close to what I was aiming at. Also the range safety office was quite interested in what I was shooting. I let him check it out for a few and he let me stay on the ranger for an extra 30min.  ;D