Yesterday I showed off my 35/40 sporter to a friend and his son. I had taken it out about a month ago looking for pigs during a full moon. When I brought it in I had left the loaded round in the chamber and safety on. All was good as I opened the side gate and poured out the 3 rounds in the magazine. Took the safety off and opened the bolt and ejected the loaded round, no issues. Here is were things went wrong. I seem to remember pulling the trigger and letting the firing pin down on the empty chamber. I was going to show how the magazine worked and loaded the 4 rounds in the magazine with the bolt closed. Opening the bolt with my friend looking over the shoulder, the first cartridge popped up like normal, I was paying attention to the cartridge feeding while closing the bolt, smooth like it was supposed to be, then bang as the bolt finished closing! The noise of an unexpected accidental discharge in a house is incredible!

Here is where I would advise doing something different that what I did, I wanted to find out why right now! After emptying the magazine and confirming the chamber was clear I cycled the bolt a couple of times< adrenaline kept me from feeling all that was happening. Felt normal each time. My friend pointed out the firing pin was not cocked a couple of those cycles. Intermittent failure, Argh! I cycled it a couple more times and yeah sometimes the pin was in the fired position and sometimes in the cocked position.
Later I tried a couple more times and I think the trigger was fully forward when the bolt closed with the firing pin down. Not 100% sure as I was still rattled. Now the failure will not repeat! I know it is not fixed and it will happen again if not addressed. In email with Butlersrangers and Whig a couple of possible causes were mentioned. I will ask them to hold those thoughts till others get to tell if they have had something similar happen with a cause and repair.

I was getting near my 2000 character limit so more info.
This is my sporter with the shop made trigger and unmodified sear and original spring( not modified by me anyway). Mentioned with photos in this thread:
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Some of the build is documented here:
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Checking with things later when I was not as rattled, I found I could pull the trigger till the first stage easy pull was complete and up against the 2nd stage releasing the trigger it did not return to the forward position. Lack of lube, weak spring or normal? What say you Krag experts? Pulling the knob back or putting it on safety did allow the trigger to return forward. In the other thread it was mentioned that bolt lift could cause an unintended discharge with a defective or modified trigger sear assembly. So I lifted on the bolt and sleeve with the trigger pulled to the end of the first stage, it did not discharge.
  Right now I am questioning whether I lubed the knuckle on the sear or anything else in the trigger assembly. The sporterizing project took a couple of years with hundreds of assemblies and dis-assemblies. Not sure now on that final time.
Right now the trigger at rest is centered in the trigger guard opening with easy play from side to side, not sure if the sear also has side to side play.
I put the rifle aside cocked and on safety and intend to let it sit for a couple of days to see if the failure will repeat.
Sure wish I had put it down then and analyzed it when I was not rattled. I might already have a cause and be fixing it. Right now I do not want to take it apart and do something that almost cures it then I fails again in 1000 cycles.
The Krag trigger assembly is robust and should be problem free, so this is not a normal problem. If others have had similar problems and found a cure, we need to hear it for everyone's benefit.

I have communicated with 'FredC', in a couple of emails in the last 24 hours.

I have not experienced an 'accidental discharge', or unexpected firing-pin mechanism release, with a Krag.

BTW - All the Krags I have owned or tinkered with were in original (or the remains of) military Stocks.

FWIW - I suspect the 'wood-inletting', of Fred's Aftermarket-Stock, may be interfering with the free movement of his trigger-sear mechanism. (This might be influenced by variations in humidity causing wood-swelling and changes).

The front, rear, and side area of the trigger/sear mechanism AND THE Trigger-PIN, that holds them together, must be free of wood interference.

At Springfield Armory, the Trigger-Sear Pin, was tapered and 'Upset' in place, so it could not move side-ways.

I appreciate 'FredC' making this malfunction known on the KCA. I am very glad no one was injured.

I wait with great interest to see what he and others conclude.

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More info:
Attached is photo of my wall from inside the house. Wall here is cinder block and filled with concrete under the window. 5/8 sheet rock over 3/4 inch stryofoam, over 3/4 hat channels (airspace).The bullet did not exit to the outside. I still have discomfort in the ears, the level of my tinnitus is actually lower right now.
Attached also are some illustrations kindly provided by Butlersrangers. We have been calling the pivot in the sear a knuckle, which is fairly descriptive (SA calls it a hinge). What I have been calling first and final stage cams are referred to in the drawings as bearings and heel, not very descriptive to me. To me the sear is the actual area that slide past each other to release the trigger with the cocking piece having 1/2 as well as the surface on what Springfield Amory calls the sear. Maybe the definition has changed or I have been wrong all along.
Any comments on what we call these things will be taken into consideration.
The design of Krag trigger are normally trouble free and as mentioned by 2 members here, they have not had an accidental discharge with their Krags.
I hope the discussion helps all to remember safety. I can think moving through heavy brush one could possibly get twigs or debris in the trigger/trigger guard. We have at least 2 insects here that like to fill openings. The end of a barrel or the trigger guard opening would make a fine nesting spot for either one.
Again, comments, suggestions, and advice are welcome.

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I have expressed my appreciation to Fred for sharing this accidental discharge with us at KCA. This topic can be appreciated at any blog regarding firearms.

The main thing is that Fred and his guests are OK. Except for the hearing effects, no loss of limb or life. It wouldn't take much to have been worse. Please, do not put live rounds in a firearm inside unless you are loading for self defense. I even have taken the firing pin (striker) out of my bolt to allow me to cycle live rounds through my Krags to test them and adjust them. The second thing is, of course, watch where the muzzle is pointed, even when you think it is unloaded. What's the warning: Always assume every firearm is always loaded and treat it as such!

Butlers is in a better position than I am to evaluate the exact mechanism(s) that might have caused this A.D. I told Fred that I have never tried to alter my Krag triggers or sears other than polishing them and removing burrs for smoother function. Trying creative gun smithing to lower the trigger pull or make the trigger a one stage pull-through may not be in everyone's best interest.

I have some different recommendations that may be important to consider.

Any KCA (or other site) postings to alter the trigger should be regarded as thought-provoking but not an actual recommendation since it could be dangerous and result in damage or death. That could also easily be said for load recommendations or powder changes with reloading.

Always check any load recommendation against printed reloading manuals before actually reloading. This is a typical warning seen many times on other sites. How easy it is to make a typing error and not proofread to correct that might cause someone inexperienced to make a deadly mistake.

Permanent hearing loss can definitely occur as a result of even one unprotected discharge in an inclosed space such as happened to Fred. We are all getting older and have normal aging loss of hearing and hereditary difficulties. (cont)

Even small explosions can cause ongoing hearing loss because it adds up over time. Tinnitus is a sign of high frequency hearing loss. I have it and I have learned to just block it out.

I always dis-assemble my Krags and check them out from the inside out. I have found more than one to have caked-up and dried oil deposits with 100+ years of crud developed in and around the trigger and sear. Sometimes this stuff is like creosote. It needs to be sprayed with oil, scrubbed with a toothbrush or wiped out and re-lubricated before it can function smoothly again. This could have been part of Fred's problem also.


So, Fred has brought this to the forefront for all of us to learn from. We are glad he was not injured. We may not ever learn the exact reason as to what happened but it's a great discussion.

Hope the hearing comes back quickly, Fred!

'FredC' - Thank You; I have made a copy of your 'pencil photo' and will hang it in my work area as a reminder to always be careful.

Now some gallows humor:

What load were you using behind that Pencil? Was it a #2 Ticonderoga, Eberhard Faber, Bostonian, or some Vietnamese Crap?
(Sorry, but, You know this question will be coming from 'Madsenshooter' or that little Ohio guy in Africa)!

BTW - I rather be in the "Mile High Club" than in your "Hole in the Wall Gang)!

There, got it out of my system ... Now back to Fred's very serious thread.

Attached is a photo of the replacement trigger, that Fred made, years ago.

'Wood interference' could put friction and cause 'hang ups' on any of the side-surfaces of the trigger or sear.

Also, rubbing and friction with the trigger-guard opening could cause mischief, especially if the metal Guard is slightly 'canted'.

I have put arrows at front & rear trigger/sear areas that might get unwanted contact.

IF the Trigger-Pin is Free to Drift, side to side, it could 'hang up' the mechanism.

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Receiver had been thoroughly cleaned during sporterizing, maybe too clean will go back in in a couple of days and look along side the sear for clearance and any lubrication. Good point on older Krags that have been out of service for 40 years is to check the sear hole for the spring and hinge for hard gunk.


While we are waiting are your trigger springs strong enough to return a partially pulled trigger back to full forward? Mine does not, will check  for lube on the sear surfaces. I did not modify this spring for less pull, that does not mean that a previous owner did not modify it.

I do not have enough parts to test things like this on the barreled receiver I just purchased from Whig. This is the main reason I got it is for tests and measurements.

Additional, the pin was tight and flush on both sides when installed. Could see where a loose pin could cause a disaster.

Butlersrangers, if you want the pencil photo in higher resolution I can email it to you. Pencil was never sharpened, brand new full length.

For inquiring minds 43 grains of Varget with a 200 grain jacketed round nose, 47.? was determined to be max by Quickload.

Hi FredC,

I'm guessing you've already tried to cycle the action and observe functionality with the stock removed???

Is it still possible to remove/replace your modified trigger with a an original Krag trigger???

Thinking maybe you can rule-out your modified trigger if you reproduce the same results with an original Krag trigger...minus the bang!

BTW: I have a Panasonic Auto-Stop pencil sharpener (Model KP-380) that puts an excellent spitzer like tip, on any pencil, for smoother flight, deeper penetration and uniform lead expansion!  :D

LocalBoy,
I wanted to see the problem again before disturbing things. So right now the sporter is sitting with the safety on to try and replicate the first incident. In a day or so I will do it again, with an empty chamber this time. If it does not repeat the fault I will start taking it apart  for analysis.
Just to be clear the pencil was stuck in the hole afterwards to show it up. Did not try spinning the pencil to see if the hat channels in the wall would act as a sharpener. Now you have given me a reason not plug the hole. :-)

Some days I am just slow. I finally caught on the question:

What load were you using behind that Pencil? Was it a #2 Ticonderoga, Eberhard Faber, Bostonian, or some Vietnamese Crap?
(Sorry, but, You know this question will be coming from 'Madsenshooter' or that little Ohio guy in Africa)!

Pencil was powered by the little finger with miniscule effort. :-) Not sure if I found the bottom of the hole, did not do any probing there. The cinder blocks under the window had the cores filled with concrete, seems like the 200 grain traveling at close to 2300FPS should have penetrated deeper. I doubt the pencil is touching the slug. Pencil was made in the USA, I bought a couple cases 30 years ago so as to not have to put up with foreign junk, still have about half of them.

LOL

Sure would be a conversation starter!

Glad no one was hurt and I hope your able to resolve the accidental discharge issue.

'FredC' - The Krag trigger-spring is quite strong and should 'lever' the sear completely 'up' and return the trigger to the full forward position.

IIRC - S&S Firearms (Glendale, N.Y.) has original Krag trigger-springs for $3.00 apiece.

I don't think lubrication is a big deal with Krag triggers. It is probably a case of "less is more". I use a little bit of Wilson Grease intended for .45 auto pistols.
Old hardened cosmoline should be removed; it no longer lubricates.

(The following is some Midwestern Humor and not to be taken seriously):

Fred, you will get better pencil velocity with the graphite on the outside of the pencil, instead of being inside.
(Though, you were wise to stock up on pencils, years ago)!

I fired off a box of "Paper-Mate" #2 pencils this afternoon, powered with IMR-4759.
Sharpening the tips really improved velocity, but, my penetration didn't equal Fred's.
The melted eraser residue was difficult to remove from the bore. I had to resort to 'GUMOUT'.

butlersrangers wrote on Jan 13^th, 2020 at 11:50pm:

'FredC' - The Krag trigger-spring is quite strong and should 'lever' the sear completely 'up' and return the trigger to the full forward position. IIRC - S&S Firearms (Glendale, N.Y.) has original Krag trigger-springs for $3.00 apiece. I don't think lubrication is a big deal with Krag triggers. It is probably a case of "less is more". I use a little bit of Wilson Grease intended for .45 auto pistols. Old hardened cosmoline should be removed; it no longer lubricates. (The following is some Midwestern Humor and not to be taken seriously): Fred, you will get better pencil velocity with the graphite on the outside of the pencil, instead of being inside. I fired off a box of "Paper-Mate" #2 pencils this afternoon, powered with IMR-4759. Sharpening the tips really improved velocity, but, my penetration didn't equal Fred's. The melted eraser residue was difficult to remove from the bore. I had to resort to 'GUMOUT'.

Good to know on the spring strength. maybe others will want to check and report what they find on their Krags.

Pencil humor did not get past me this time, pretty funny.

Fred C thanks for posting the problem you discovered with Krag rifle. That takes a lot of guts and I'm glad no one was hurt!
Without having a rifle in my hands to study and try to replicate an "AD" one thing immediately pops into mind that admittedly I haven't tried with a Krag rifle.

It's a question sort of so bear with me until I can get one apart to study further.  I quickly looked at your links and without quoting I read where you had some fitting problems initially regarding your trigger.

Now the question, will a Krag trigger that is not captured inside a trigger guard release the sear when its pushed forward like a Springfield 1903?

In your image depicting the shank of the trigger and the area captured by the box right at the beginning of the curved face of the trigger. That area looks to be very slightly peened over right at a point where the guard slot would cease its forward movement.

Is it possible enough clearance is evident to let the trigger move forward. Whether it be from slack or wear through use? It was just the first thing that occurred to me.

Even if the face of the shank is not soft if the guard is not drilled or inletted to perfect alignment enough clearance could have just occurred with use to allow the trigger to be pushed very slightly forward allowing the sear to work, but in reverse. I never tried to push a Krag trigger forward but it will happen in other rifle types of similar design.

Ill wait to read any other findings. Thanks-Brian

With the trigger-guard off and the action out of the Stock, the  Krag trigger can be pushed forward to release the striker mechanism.
(When assembled, a normal Krag Stock and Trigger-Guard prevent this forward movement).

Note:
The Krag Safety, when engaged, holds the Striker Mechanism in the rear 'cocked' position and the Bolt is 'locked' closed. The Trigger can be pulled, but, the applied Safety keeps the Striker from moving forward.

If something should hold the Sear out-of-engagement with the 'tensioned' Cocking-Piece, the mechanism will 'Fire', when the Safety-Lever is moved to the 'Off' Position.

If the Krag Trigger/Sear Assembly is free to move and function normally, the Striker Mechanism would make contact and be held back by the Sear. An accidental release' would not occur.

(My second photo has the sear held out of position. A little more movement of the Safety to the 'Off' position will release the Striker with enough force to potentially fire a cartridge).

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If this A.D. has not been easily understood or reproducible, there are a few areas of concern that could alter normal function of the entire trigger mechanism. I guess anything affecting normal flow of motion from one part to another could cause improper action such as an accidental discharge.

After cocking, the trigger is pressed to the rear. The slack is taken up in the first press of the trigger rearward until the second stage is reached where the sear is engaged to be released from the ledge of the firing pin rod. There is pivot at the "hinge" of the trigger to cause this sear release with response from the trigger spring pushing rearward at the front of where the sear attaches to the receiver. The rear most part of the trigger must be clear to allow for it to move upward to allow for the hinge to pivot and release the sear at the point of contact with the firing pin rod to allow the spring release of the striker in the bolt to hit the bullet primer.

So, if anything affects any part of these actions, something abnormal and potentially unexpected can happen. That could include any debris temporarily in the way of the sear spring, pressure laterally on any part of the sear or trigger to prevent smooth movement, debris in the way of the rear part of the trigger that would prevent pivot of the sear and trigger at the hinge, metal burrs or rust preventing smooth and predictable motion of any of these parts or mechanism.

I also could see where there could be "premature release" of the sear from the firing pin rod ledge if either of these is not squared off and improperly ground or worn down and not permitting solid engagement.

It would be nice to see pictures, Fred, of the trigger and sear to see if anything is worn abnormally. The trigger spring could easily be replaced, as Butlers recommended, and make sure the trigger seat is clear front and back.

This solves nothing but just serves as an additional attempt to evaluate the situation.

Thanks again Fred.

My suggestion is to start by Checking "Metal Function":

With the Krag action out of its Stock, the action "cocked", and the Safety applied, you should be able to pull the trigger so the sear will clear the 'cocking-piece.

The Safety should continue to hold the Striker in the 'cocked' position.

When released, the Trigger/Sear assembly should move fully back into its original position.
If the Safety is moved to the 'off' position, the sear should be able to fully engage the cocking-piece.

If metal has been removed from the contact surfaces of the Safety and Cocking-Piece Rod, it may allow the striker mechanism to move forward slightly when the trigger is pulled (with Safety applied).
This could block the Trigger/Sear from returning to engage the Cocking-Piece.

(My understanding of things):

The Krag Safety-Lever, when moved to the "Safe" position, slightly retracts the striker-rod and locks the bolt closed.

This allows for free movement of the trigger/sear.

If the trigger is pulled and the striker-rod is not slightly retracted, the trigger/sear can 'hang-up' on it (in a 'false' position) and not return to its raised position.
 
If this happens, the Striker will release ('Fire'), when the Safety is rotated back to the "Off" position.

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I tried it this morning and no failures again. Right now I am thinking that I have a perfect storm of everything mentioned so far. I did stick a knife blade into the sear slot to see if the sear was centered. I could scootch to the right and left so if it is binding it is not extreme. It does have a little bias wanting to be to the left, so BRs first inclination of something touching the sear could be correct. I probably have a weak spring and can check it against the one just purchased from Whig. I had this thing apart and together so many times I probably forgot to lube the trigger when installing it the last time. Also I did not alter the sear in anyway, I can see some micro dings that should have been removed from the sear with a fine Arkansas hone. Also as discussed in the trigger modification thread I did not hone off any dings on the edges of the sear knuckle/hinge.
So right now the plan is to disassemble and look for all these obvious things, and reassemble correctly and hope there is not one more unknown we forgot. I looked for my small tube of gun grease and could not find it, that makes it kind of obvious I forgot to grease things doesn't it.
So it will take a couple of days to get some more grease, so that is more time to think more on this.

Got a question since the trigger was not catching the cocking piece that meant the opening cam for pulling it back was releasing it relatively slowly. How slowly does the firing pin have to be released so there is no hang fire or unintended ignition. Can you pull the trigger and let the pin down slowly enough that the pin will not dent the primer? Easy experiments to try with a primed case with no powder.

I did the check on the safety pulling the cocking piece off the sear. That was an early concern since this Krag has the bolt with the extreme wear on the lug. Everything was OK there. OOH, that is one more thing to check, make sure that in cycling the bolt it always comes back far enough to catch the trigger sear

Heck, I don't know how the firing pin rod main spring in the bolt would allow for a "slow" release to cause a misfire or hang fire. Hang fires are often due to bad or old primer chemicals that take time to explode once the primer is struck.  I have had many with old milsurp ammo.

When the sear is released, if the safety is off, the bolt should allow the striker on the firing pin rod via the main spring to strike the primer quickly with the force required to fire the primer. That is if the main spring is strong enough and clear to function properly.

In all of the dozens of Krag bolts I have dis-assembled and operated, I have yet to find a weak main spring. Says a lot for the spring metallurgy from Springfield Armory 120 years ago!

" OOH, that is one more thing to check, make sure that in cycling the bolt it always comes back far enough to catch the trigger sear."

That one was a red herring, pulling the cocking piece far enough back to catch the sear is automatic during the lifting the bolt handle. Short cycling the bolt will cause no harm unless you do not pull it back far enough to catch the next shell.
I tried some other things like rotating the bolt sleeve while the bolt is pulled back, impossible the Krag inventors and armory really nailed this design.

You guys are starting to lose me.

Take the Bolt out of your Krag and observe the action of the Trigger/Sear, as you slowly pull the trigger.
The first-stage should cause some lowering of the sear. The second-stage will complete the lowering of the sear.

When you slowly ease up on the trigger, the process should positively reverse itself. (You can hear and feel the mechanical contact of metal surfaces, both ways).

If the 'return' of the trigger & sear is vague, the Trigger-Spring might be weak (or a poor replacement). The other possibility is poor Stock fit and interference.

If everything is moving correctly, put the Bolt back in the rifle and move the Safety to the 'Safe' position.
Repeat the trigger sequence. The trigger should feel, sound and operate the same as when the Bolt was removed.

Fred's Main-Spring is obviously strong enough to fire the rifle! (I don't recall any mention of misfires)?

If trigger action has been vague with the rifle fully assembled, remove the Stock and repeat the above sequence.
If things work correctly with the Stock removed, the problem must be something about the fit of the Stock to the metal.

Whig,
Sorry I did not see your reply, my 2 were just a few minutes apart. Since the sear failed to catch the cocking piece when closing the bolt the speed that the firing pin can fall is controlled by the closing cam. On this AD I closed the bolt very slowly as we watched the bolt catch the cartridge and start pushing the round into the chamber, I did speed up towards the finish. The firing pin speed is still controlled by the opening cam. so it was still very slow compared to the normal free fall. Imagine holding the trigger as you close the bolt, the pin will move forward as controlled by the opening cam. Same speed as when opening except in the opposite direction. Surprised when I think about it that it would even ignite the primer. If you close the bolt slow enough there has to be a threshold were it is too slow to ignite.

BR,
I had already done the test to see if the safety did pull the cocking piece off the sear. It did pass. My other tests were to make sure the bolt wear/setback wear not causing any issues. Design is too robust so no issues can be created by twisting on the cocking piece, bolt or sleeve when opening the bolt even tried the same test when the bolt was fully back.
I do have a purchased firing pin with some wear on the cocking piece and can see where this could cause some issues. Will open this post up in a few minutes to attach a photo.

IMHO -Too many variables are being brought into the problem.

If I fully understand, after re-reading the original post, Fred's rifle 'fired' when he closed the bolt on a loaded chamber.

Unless the trigger was accidentally pulled, this would indicate the sear 'nose' (A) failed to adequately engage the 'sear notch' (G) of the Cocking-Piece.

Likely reasons: inadequate sear-spring or stock interference.

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I am putting the 2 photos in a separate reply to make it easier to find for other searching for AD. The photos show wear on the point of the cam following surface, more extreme wear could cause the cocking  piece not to pull back far enough to catch the sear. Not my issue but could be helpful to others. Photos are now upgraded.

These photos are not from the problem sporter, but are from a junk firing pin used for experiments. The worn areas have a line drawn around the wear. The roughness in this area would be bad for a good bolt as well a possibly getting worse. For others diagnosing an AD event this will be something to check. Worse wear in this are could cause the sear surface on the cocking piece to not engage the sear.

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Well, that 'Firing Pin Rod' has been messed with and the Cocking-Piece Knob appears re-shaped!

Were you able to compare the A.D. fired empty case with another fired case from the same rifle? Maybe a high primer or different indentation in the primer. Just a thought.

butlersrangers wrote on Jan 14^th, 2020 at 6:24pm:

Well, that 'Firing Pin Rod' has been messed with and the Cocking-Piece Knob appears re-shaped!

Sorry for the confusion, the firing pin rod in the 2 last photos are from a junk purchased firing pin NOT in my sporter. They are only illustrative of what could potentially cause AD for others. The cam surface was clearly worn and I would never use it for that reason. The mods to the knob were just to see how much a person could safely take off and how much would be gained for increasing lock speed. Different photos of the same modification were on this site in a different thread several years ago.    (You need to Login

For my sporter, now disassembled I did find the wrong spring that was added many years before I began the sporterizing project. Failures are hardly ever from one cause so I am looking at 2 other potential contributors now. I am going to need some better optics to see look further into this. The light on my bore scope failed and will try to adapt another light to it. I will be looking inside the stock for rubbing and at the bottom of the groove cut into the trigger. also my trigger pin was a light press fit. It was still centered when removed, but could be moved with light pressure. Probably not a contributor but should be improved on the fit anyway.

OK, primary cause spring was not standard, weaker because of smaller wire diameter, also longer and larger diameter than original. One end is slightly larger diameter than the other. Could be the reason it worked for years then did not. The end that is larger diameter can bind in the hole in the sear. Not sure which side was in first as I did not pay attention when I pulled it out.

In one item I have a probable cause plus a contributor. Will still address the other potential problems and investigate a couple that you all suggested. Brought over my working Mag Light to see if parts can be used to repair my HawkEye bore scope. I will continue to look for other contributing factors till I can not find anymore.

The spring that was pulled is on the left, close to 1/4 inch diameter. The spring from the newly purchased Krag on the right .227 diameter and .570 long. Close enough or should I wait for a new one?

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Good job, Fred! I would just replace this spring with the good one and give it a try. I think it will work fine.

Try loading it once you're at the range, though!!

The spring is noticeably stronger and the trigger will pull back to the full retract when released. For anyone else if your trigger does not retract when you pull it to the end of the first stage then release, you may have a modified/wrong spring or a serious lack of lube with maybe gunk holding things up.
Did clean up the sides of the trigger channel per BR suggestions. Looking with the repaired bore scope from the sides there was no evidence of rubbing but the sides are now smoother and overflow accuglass has been removed. At least I will never have to think about that one again.
Still planning to take the front step off the trigger to lengthen first stage travel. No down side to that plus a little extra sear engaged initially is a good thing. Several more small things to address.

FredC wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 3:00am:

. . . Still planning to take the front step off the trigger to lengthen first stage travel. No down side to that plus a little extra sear engaged initially is a good thing. . .

Downside is that shortening the front hump will likely also lengthen the second stage, making it feel both heavier and "creepy". Restoring short, crisp second stage will then require taking some off the rear hump.

In other words, if the second stage is good now, don't hump it!

Parashooter,
Take a look at reply#6 Butlersrangers reposted one of my photos with a box drawn around the trigger where it will contact the trigger guard. On the front of the trigger there is a small pad that limits the sear engagement and maybe a little extra thickness at that point. I intend to take that pad off as well as a little extra on that front surface. I too like the humps of the first stage and do not intend to touch them. :-)

Details, this next one is a small thing that may not of contributed, but I will address it also. In the bottom of the recess that the sear is installed, in the area of the pivot pin I did some scraping with a burr knife. It must have been a little tight there or I would not have done that scraping. There are a couple of smooth spots that could have been made with fine wet or dry sand paper or could be wear from the sear. The sear with the pivot just above does not show any wear ,but just in case I will go in there now with a small milling cutter to make it a little deeper. You can see the angles on the inside of the corner on the trigger, I must have been at the limit of the depth the grinding wheel could do. This was a borrowed surface grinder and my boss probably would not have appreciated me dressing all that material off his grinding wheels.

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Gee whiz.  A week in Niger and all heck breaks loose.

Glad nothing but the wall and a little pride was damaged.

signed

The little Ohio guy in Africa. >:( :D

.

Fred - Here is a nice drawing you can enlarge, frame, and hang on the wall .... hint, hint.

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You guys see the overtravel stop in this system?  It's in the wood, right below the trigger spring housing.  Whenever I look at a used stock, I look to see if that area's been messed with.  Course it has to be properly timed with the sear.

butlersrangers wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 6:19pm:

Fred - Here is a nice drawing you can enlarge, frame, and hang on the wall .... hint, hint.

Since I have given up on using the hole for a pencil sharpener, your suggesting that I hang the drawing over the hole to cover it? If so I am catching on.

The drawing was made way before CAD was available so I expect a few discrepancies. The trigger guard that came with this sporter had been pounded flat (changing the distance between the screw holes.). The one in BR's drawing has one angle, the one I bought from Dan Lowry has two angles. Model change, my new one is wrong or just an oversight on the drawing? 

I believe all U.S. Krag trigger-guards are interchangeable between models.

Nothing simple about the Krag. The trigger-guard screws are angled.
As you say, there appear to be a couple angles in the trigger-plate section of the guard.

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I just want to add that was some kind of good shooting.

Well done.  See you at Camp Perry. :D



(Didn't want ButlersRangers to feel disappointed about me not yucking it up.  Still glad no one got hurt)



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You really can't put too much stock in one shot.

Rifle performance should be judged on "repeatability" .... meaning Groups.

Remember to wear Hearing Protection!

You guys started it...

Guy Creates A Pistol That Can Shoot IKEA Wooden Pencils:

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butlersrangers wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 12:35am:

I believe all U.S. Krag trigger-guards are interchangeable between models. Nothing simple about the Krag. The trigger-guard screws are angled. As you say, there appear to be a couple angles in the trigger-plate section of the guard.

Good to know I did not trade one bad trigger guard for another.

On repeatability I once delivered parts to Mr. Kleinguenther while they were sighting in a new 375 H&H magnum. 3 shot group with less than 1/8 in center to center at 100 meters, I was dumb founded that an elephant gun could shoot that tight a group. They said that 375s usually do that well. I guess the reasons a 375 is not used for regular target shooting is the recoil is somewhat punishing, it uses a lot of powder, and lack of good bullets with a high ballistic coefficient.

"Heavy Artillery" is accurate.

BTW - The .300 H&H was a popular 1,000 yard match cartridge at Camp Perry. But, it's tough on pencils and walls!

I have done a lot of repairs and enhancement to the trigger since the last post. Today I made a new pivot pin to increase the press fit. Also deepened the groove in the trigger for clearance and smoothed up the hole with a couple of turns of rolled up abrasive cloth in the sear spring hole. I thought it could not hurt to smooth out any dingle berries and scale from heat treat. Took a photo to show what I did and found another contributor. That ding on the 5 o-clock position of the sear on the right was big enough to catch the over sized spring. It was a perfect storm of mistakes. I had assembled and disassembled this thing so many times I forgot to lube the trigger assembly, flipped the spring that used to work and did not catch the ding that had probably always been there. Some of the other things you all suggested are potential problems others could run into. These threads we think are only viewed by us regulars may be viewed by thousands of others. Before this is over I will go through and make a list of things to check based on suggestions made here.  I have made a bunch photos of the work so far and will post them soon.

I need to get some real gun grease as I can not find the old tube, the only reason I did not assemble the trigger today. good thing as it gave me time to make the photos. I plan on stopping at a gun shop Monday as I will be going to a dentist in San Antonio. No good places to find gun grease in Dewees.

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I want to thank everyone that contributed to this thread. Some I did not acknowledge at the time because I knew it was not a contributor to my accident or another member addressed it. But this thread will be read by many in the future and those non issues for me will be helpful to others, so again thanks.

I do have some more photos and observations that I may add to another thread as I think this one should be for fixing or preventing ADs.

OK here is one more I just found while organizing photos, This trigger was completely broken while attempting to disassemble it. It is completely possible to partially break a trigger. If you have a wonky trigger look for partial breaks.

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Wow, That is different!

It looks like someone had a mishap and used misdirected force in trying to remove or replace trigger-pin, that holds trigger and sear together.

.... Or possibly tried to compress 'flanges' on trigger to eliminate side-play of sear?

Crazy Bubba!

Just to add a bit of levity to Fred's experience...

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butlersrangers wrote on Feb 5^th, 2020 at 5:02pm:

Wow, That is different! It looks like someone had a mishap and used misdirected force in trying to remove or replace trigger-pin, that holds trigger and sear together. .... Or possibly tried to compress 'flanges' on trigger to eliminate side-play of sear? Crazy Bubba!

AH, BR that was me! 45 years ago there was no internet or KCA for looking stuff up. You mentioned a couple of years ago the trigger pin was tapered. The light bulb went on then as to why would that ear break off like that when pushing the pin out.
With the trigger detail just included in this thread we can now know the small side was upset by SA. With a trigger assembly in hand you measure both sides and you think it is a straight pin that can be tapped or pressed out from either side. 50/50 chance of getting it wrong unless you look it up on the KCA.
Today if one had a trigger assembly than needed to be disassembled one could file off the mushroomed left side and push it to the right. When reassembling if the pin was too short Grandpa's has new ones.
The case hardening on those ears went all the way thru so they are brittle and break easily. My point was with almost 500,000 units out there are at least a few that could be acting up because of a partial break. The only source for used gun parts that I knew of back then sent me that junk trigger as a replacement. Others may have done a brazing repair or some other improvised fix.

Knowing what I do today the only reason to disassemble one would be if it is full of polishing compound from some one that blued it.
Do I need to change my screen name to Crazy Bubba?:-)

On the subject of not breaking good triggers, the attached photo was made a couple of days ago to illustrate another idea if one needs to be disassembled. Take up the slack between the sear and the inside of the trigger with a feeler gauge. Greasing it before doing this may help in getting it out if it tightens up after the pin is removed. Using a small or miniature arbor press would be better than tapping it out with a punch or drift.

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I'd like to interject a comment here that I think is appropriate for some people reading these posts about the potential difficulties that could be experienced in working with Krags and the accidental discharge that Fred had.

I have dis-assembled dozens of Krags, removing triggers, sears, cleaning crud out, replacing springs, switching parts with other Krags, etc. I have never, not once, faced any of these unusual problems where the trigger group failed to fire or mis-fired or hung up unusually. I have always been able to dis-assemble these parts, al-be-it carefully, and never have had anything break. Once I had a magazine pin bend but I worked with it to get it to slide out with the help of a mallet and piece of wood where it did not break and could be reused.

So, don't be discouraged by the complexities at what you are reading here. The detail that has been exposed is simply an exercise at deep insight for analyzing one issue. These Krags are not difficult to work with. Just go slow and don't force anything and, if there are any questions, ask and people here will help deal with them.

Enough said. Sometimes it can get scary if you go too deep into problems.

Thanks, Fred!

I agree with 'Whig'. U.S. Krags generally come apart easily for me without destruction of parts.

If a pin is stubborn, apply penetrating oil, brush exposed surfaces with a toothbrush, and try driving the pin from the other direction. (Maybe it got reassembled incorrectly at some point of time).

I use steel & brass punches, a plastic or copper mallet, and support the parts on hardwood or a bronze plate.

It should not take excessive force. Getting a pin or screw to start moving is half the job.

p.s. - FredC, you are not "Bubba" and confession grants absolution.

ARRRG! Found the source of all the problems. I was just reassembling the sporter. All the parts were in a tool box/work bench that has been the project bench for all these years. What do I find in the drawer, see the photo, I think that was the spring that was supposed to have gone with the sporter. At the beginning of this thread I said that there was an original spring in this sporter. Evidentially the original spring is in the labeled bag! I looked at posts over at Practical Machinist, I started this project years ago(2013). The spring was in a bag in plain sight in the drawer. Years later when I finally finished this thing I picked up a random spring (Maybe on this box) and it went in the hole being anxious to finish I did not search the drawer for the right spring.
ARRGGH!!! All the pain!
Newly purchased barreled receiver and other Krag odds and ends are now in the drawer. The spring from Whigs receiver has just been installed in the sporter, the problem spring is next to the envelope, only explanation is I picked up the wrong one while the right one was right there. It is getting hard to remember what I did yesterday much less what I did 2 years ago.
ARRGH!

p.s. - FredC, you are not "Bubba" and confession grants absolution.
Thanks, BR.

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No accusations, Fred...Just popped into my head:

DEMENTIA - a collective term used to describe various symptoms of cognitive decline, such as forgetfulness. It is a symptom of several underlying diseases and brain disorders. Dementia is not a single disease in itself, but a general term to describe symptoms of impairment in memory, communication, and thinking. :D

I think it's caused by silly life stuff and survival getting in the way of tinkering with Krags, Hunting and Shooting.