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Firearms >> Sporterized and unofficial modified Krags >> The Most Valuable Krags
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Message started by butlersrangers on Apr 18th, 2020 at 3:03pm

Title: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 18th, 2020 at 3:03pm
These three Krags, because of connection with historic or notorious events and persons of some fame, in my opinion could command the most money.

The Steyr made model 1894 Norwegian Krag rifle of Boer General Tobias Smuts. (Serial number may be #124, per South African Collectors viewing a clear original photograph of Tobias Smuts & Krag. Fate of rifle is presently unknown).

An altered U.S. model 1898 Krag rifle, briefly owned by Clyde Barrow and likely captured by Joplin, Mo. Police. (Serial number unknown)

A beautiful custom model 1899 carbine, #429596, that was presented to General Frederick Dent Grant.

The first two Krags have yet to be documented, by serial number, and their location is unknown.

The Grant carbine is listed on the Rock Island Auction House site - May 24, 2020, auction - with bid starting at $30,000. ("Whig" deserves credit for first posting this on KCA forum).

Do you have better candidates?
tobias_smuts-krag_001.jpg ( 20 KB | 0 Downloads )
a_clyde-ed_001.jpg ( 90 KB | 3 Downloads )
fgrant-6.jpg ( 67 KB | 0 Downloads )
fgrant-1_001.jpg ( 19 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Dick Hosmer on Apr 18th, 2020 at 3:37pm
Hmmm - that applied pistol grip looks VERY familiar!

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 18th, 2020 at 4:12pm
Trapdoor 'Officer's Rifle' ?
officers_rifle.jpg ( 16 KB | 1 Download )

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by King carp on Apr 18th, 2020 at 5:51pm
I think the most valuable Krag is the one you want and do not own yet.

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Dick Hosmer on Apr 18th, 2020 at 6:52pm

butlersrangers wrote on Apr 18th, 2020 at 4:12pm:
Trapdoor 'Officer's Rifle' ?


Bingo!

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by psteinmayer on Apr 18th, 2020 at 10:31pm
I guess if I had to choose... the one that I personally would want most would be the Clyde Barrow sporter!  That's one I would place in a class case on the wall!!!

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Whig on Apr 18th, 2020 at 10:50pm
How about Krag rifle Serial Number 1?

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 19th, 2020 at 8:21pm
Is there/was there ... a U.S. Krag rifle #1?

Have rifles #2 to #9 been seen since 1894? They are listed in Mallory's SRS tables.
(Well, I guess rifle #7 is listed as retired by the Savage Arms Company, in 1899).

Probably anything #95 or lower was a test rifle or presentation piece.

Original Ordnance 'Trial Rifles' would be precious.

I wonder what number was presented to the German Kaiser? Apparently it was in first 300 rifles.

Danke!

kaiser_krag.jpg ( 33 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Whig on Apr 19th, 2020 at 11:41pm
Since this is an exercise in wishful thinking and/or dreaming, it is irrelevant whether Krag rifle serial number 1 exists or not!

So, there! Blahhh!

(Just for fun, of course!)
download_008.jpeg ( 12 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 20th, 2020 at 12:13am
I was simply noticing that Mallory's SRS tables start with U.S. Krag, #2.

What is the lowest U.S. Krag serial number a KCA member has seen, in person?

I have never seen anything less than four digits.

IMHO - Some 'mega valuable' Krags could be floating around in plain view, commanding no great premium, because they have not yet been identified and documented, as to provenance.

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by King carp on Apr 20th, 2020 at 2:22am
In the Krag book by Brophy on page 24 there is a picture of Krag serial no. 1 which was converted to model 1896. It states it was burned in a fire during the 1930's. It does not state its fate.

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 20th, 2020 at 3:41am
Thanks 'King Carp', it is amazing what one forgets and has to re-learn.

While you were researching, I was going through the online pages for the Springfield Armory N.H.P. collection, (which is not easy)!

I found the listing (SPAR 3193) for U.S. Rifle Model 1892 Krag-Jorgensen SN# 1. (I have seen these catalog pages before. It is an interesting read.).

The photo used in the listing looks a lot better than the photo and condition cited by Brophy. Maybe the catalog photo pre-dates the 1930's fire or Krag #1 was restored?

When the "Quarantine" is over, we are just going to have to go look ourselves!

Anyways, we know it exists, where it is, and that it's not for sale! It belongs to all of us, Yeah.

BTW - SPAR 697 - Is likely "Trial Rifle" No. 5.
A hand-stamped Norwegian prototype, serial #100, that is likely the very rifle that Erik Jorgensen wielded to win the hearts of the U.S. Ordnance Department, in the 1892 Trials.
spar-3193_U_S__Krag_-No_1.jpg ( 37 KB | 1 Download )
SA_-_Krag_No__1_-_bio.jpg ( 137 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Culpeper on Apr 20th, 2020 at 5:28am

butlersrangers wrote on Apr 20th, 2020 at 12:13am:
I was simply noticing that Mallory's SRS tables start with U.S. Krag, #2.

What is the lowest U.S. Krag serial number a KCA member has seen, in person?

I have never seen anything less than four digits.

IMHO - Some 'mega valuable' Krags could be floating around in plain view, commanding no great premium, because they have not yet been identified and documented, as to provenance.


I've seen this one.  I am just guessing but odds are good some of the founding KCA members have low number Krags in their collections.

The only valuable ones to me are the eight transition numbers.  1894-95, 1895-1896, 1896-Model 1896 and Model 1896 to Model 1898.
20190726_Krag_71.jpg ( 67 KB | 2 Downloads )

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Dick Hosmer on Apr 20th, 2020 at 8:03am
I have handled 230, which had the only solid upper band I've ever seen) when owned by a friend here in the Bay Area - odd thing is that it ultimately wound up (unknown to me until he asked about about it one day - what a coincidence) in the collection of Joe Farmer!

The lowest number I have ever owned (and still do) is 2546.

For a very long time now, my rifle 37045 has stood as the highest observed "1896". The window has shrunk, over the years, to something less than 100, as the lowest "Model 1896" is now somewhere just over 37100. It would be tempting to think that they MIGHT have made the cutoff at a nice round number - but will we ever know? I doubt it.


Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by psteinmayer on Apr 20th, 2020 at 2:57pm
Hey Culpeper... Didn't you bring an 1892 in the 1000 range to Perry three years ago?

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Culpeper on Apr 20th, 2020 at 3:12pm
Now you know I did but I am too shy and unassuming and innocent to blow my my own horn.  It was #112.  Of course I am not one to settle for a three digit Krag.  No.  So the first chance I got to buy a two digit Krag I jumped at it.  The price was right too.

Did I say modest?  I'm modest also.

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 20th, 2020 at 5:19pm
Here is the likely 'Daddy' rifle - Test rifle #5.

Also, one of the 'Cataract-Tool' scoped Krags.

Fortunately, some of the best/priceless Krag stuff is at Springfield or Rock Island and belongs to all of us!
SA_Krag_spar_697_001.jpg ( 30 KB | 2 Downloads )
SA-scoped_Krag.jpg ( 77 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 20th, 2020 at 6:30pm
One of the Kaiser's Mauser "Hunting" rifles was liberated by an American G.I., during WW-2.

Maybe his Krag had a similar fate? (Hopefully it didn't go to Russia).
Kaisers_mauser.jpg ( 11 KB | 0 Downloads )

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by psteinmayer on Apr 20th, 2020 at 9:25pm

Culpeper wrote on Apr 20th, 2020 at 3:12pm:
Now you know I did but I am too shy and unassuming and innocent to blow my my own horn.  It was #112.  Of course I am not one to settle for a three digit Krag.  No.  So the first chance I got to buy a two digit Krag I jumped at it.  The price was right too.

Did I say modest?  I'm modest also.


That's right...  I knew it was a low number... but I forgot how low!  I think I remember the number of the lower number too... but I won't say out of respect for your modesty!

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by butlersrangers on Apr 20th, 2020 at 11:09pm
Krag #71 is pretty cool. It screams to have its cut-down stock 'stretched'.

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by S99VG on May 21st, 2020 at 4:10am
Besides Clyde's rifle the other two Krags are interesting.

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by FredC on May 21st, 2020 at 2:26pm
It would be interesting to have the first and last one built. Looks like #1 may have been destroyed. What about the last one?
I bought an engine from a dealer/rebuilder for the large John Deere tractor I have. The fellow that delivered it said the seller actually has the first and last 6030s built. Supposed to be a legendary tractor in John Deere's history but they just sell for what they can do as a tractor. One I tracked locally went to a rebuilder in Germany that buys them to fix up and sell as working units. He paid $6000.00 and expected to get $45,000 when completed.
Is the Krag with highest number of the last one built even known? Maybe the  were numbered receivers with higher numbers that did not get finished and were sold for parts?

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by FredC on May 21st, 2020 at 2:50pm
It would be interesting to have the first and last one built. Looks like #1 may have been destroyed. What about the last one?
I bought an engine from a dealer/rebuilder for the large John Deere tractor I have. The fellow that delivered it said the seller actually has the first and last 6030s built. Supposed to be a legendary tractor in John Deere's history but they just sell for what they can do as a tractor. One I tracked locally went to a rebuilder in Germany that buys them to fix up and sell as working units. He paid $6000.00 and expected to get $45,000 when completed.
Is the Krag with highest number of the last one built even known? Maybe there  were numbered receivers with higher numbers that did not get finished and were sold for parts?

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Whig on May 21st, 2020 at 11:34pm
Fred, we have thrown that one around for a while. I don't think anyone can state for certain what the "last" Krag was  that was built. Springfield Armory continued piecing these things together long after the official "Stop" date for production because they had lots of extra parts in the parts bins and fixed and updated Krags for years.

My highest Krag number is 482709 but I have seen a few higher.  Mallory's 1st edition lists the highest observed Krag serial number as 489840.

Without searching through my other references, I do believe there have still been some higher numbers seen since this listing in Mallory 1st edition.  Mook lists number 505999 as having been manufactured November 1903. I don't know his reference for this.

Maybe we should all chime in with high numbers known.

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Culpeper on May 22nd, 2020 at 4:51am
That may have been 305999 due to a heavy hammer strike on the stamp or a damaged stamp.  You would expect to see rifles in the 490k, and 500 to 504k serial number ranges if 505999 was part of the production run of Krags.

We are not seeing those numbers though we do see multiple krags in the 460 to low 487s that support the 489 cutoff.

Like you said we do not know his source nor do we have the rifle or a picture of the rifle's receiver to be certain. 

Of course, it could be a case of a leftover receiver that was hand stamped and built up.  However I am thinking not likely.



Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by FredC on May 22nd, 2020 at 2:09pm
Now that you mention it I seem to remember discussions of high numbers before. Assigning a super value because of a number is kind of pointless. If it was 490101 would 490100 be worth a whole lot less? So you pay $10,000 to get the last Krag and a couple of years later 490102 shows up. The last ones may have been using up parts that were not quite good enough for the regular production run but good enough someone did not have the heart to throw it away.

Title: Re: The Most Valuable Krags
Post by Whig on May 22nd, 2020 at 2:37pm
I think a "Last" numbered firearm, like a Krag, would be worth a premium if it was well documented what number was actually the last produced. We don't have those records for the Krag.

I think that the first 100 Krags would carry a premium, also, if they were in original configuration.

Really specific info on Garand:

According to Mr. Scott Duff's blue book on the post war M1 Garand, the last "official" M1 Garand came off of the Springfield Armory assembly line at 10:43 AM on 17, May 1957. Mr. Garand attended the ceremony. The serial number of this rifle was 6084405. It is now on display at the Springfield Armory museum. M1 Garand's with higher serial numbers than 6084405 do exist, however, they are rather rare, hard to find and very valuable. Many high 6-million serial numbered M1 Garands were built into National Match rifles using left over existing receivers

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