I posted on another forum and someone suggested that I ask over here so here goes.  I have been looking for a carbine barrel and determined them very hard to find.  As an alternative, I am considering using a Criterion barrel.  Does anyone have experience with these barrels and, if so, how would you recommend installing the front sight?  Many thanks and I appreciate any help I can get.

PS - I guess an alternative question is should I hold out and keep looking for a carbine barrel?  I have a 1896 carbine that has most everything but the barrel and a few other bits.  Many thanks again.

There are some people here with experience with the Criterion barrels.

I would hold out for a nice Springfield Armory Krag barrel instead. So many people, unfortunately and against the desire of many true Krag collectors, buy and sell parts from Krag rifles and carbines. They are usually found on ebay and I have seen numerous carbine barrels over the past couple years.

Just my 2c worth.

Good luck. Do you have a correct M1896 carbine rear sight?

Thanks, I appreciate your response.  I have two ways I can go with the sight.  I have a 1901 carbine sight that is missing the slide assembly.  Obviously I would have to find the slide.  I also have enough parts to build up a 1902 carbine sight which I may end up using as I have a correct reproduction hand guard.  My stock is the later replacement stock and not the original short forearm saddle bar stock.  However the 1902 sight does sound interesting.  I just joined the forum and will probably become a paying member and after that post a WTB in the classifieds as finding an original barrel would be great.  Thanks again

Is your serial number in the range of known model 1896 carbines? (That can make a difference in recommended actions).

If your action was from a model 1896 rifle and you seek to assemble a nice replica carbine for shooting, that opens possibilities.

Quite a few 'cut-down' barrels show up on ebay, that have been taken off of 'sportered' Krags. They often seem to have nice bores and sell for reasonable prices.

Such a barrel can be cut to 22  inches, re-crowned, and have a S&S Firearms replica front sight put on it.
(You would need access to someone, who can perform the work).

This is likely the least expensive route to go. Unless you refinish the action, everything is 'Parts' and reversible.

FWIW - I really like shooting at 50 and 100 yards with the 1902 rear-sight.
Also, a 1901 rifle slide will work on a 1901 carbine leaf.

This is an example of barrels sold on ebay.

Certainly an option in addition to above mentioned options.

  (You need to Login

Ouch! That's overpriced.

I was suggesting salvaging a 'cut-down' barrel with a good bore, often available for around $100 or less.

My carbine is a "put together" project from parts I've had lying around for some time now.  The receiver is what I would call in excellent condition but I don't know if it originated from a carbine or a rifle or was ever used at all.  My hunch is it came from a rifle.  All I really need to finish the project is a barrel and barrel band.  I probably also have some work to do on my sights to make the the 01 or 02 usable.  Which all gets back to my question about Criterion barrels, or any barrel that would need the front sight installed.  How do you do it?  Or maybe better yet, is there someone I could send it to?  Thanks again guys, I appreciate your help!   

Oh, yea, that barrel is real high! I wouldn't pay that for it. Re-blued and no front blade, also.

CMP's custom shop still lists that they work on Krags:

  (You need to Login

I guess it depends on if you're looking for a shooter or a museum piece.  If you're assembling it to shoot and enjoy, then Criterion is the way to go!  Their quality is spot on!  They do take a bit of work to install - they need to be finish reamed and have the front sight post brazed on... but it will be dovetailed for the sight post and drilled for the rear sight.  There have been a few guys here that had them installed, and I've heard no complaints!  FWIW, the CMP gunsmiths can and will do the work... but you will have to wait in line for their services.

Now, if you're building this to create a wall hanger, then an original barrel may be the ticket!

S99-

Could you post some pictures of what you have to work with? We're all just "shooting in the dark" with opinions and recommendations without full awareness of what you want or need based on where you are starting with this project.

A sporterized Krag, with a cut down or replaced barrel and other modifications from original military configuration, is usually valued from $300-500, based on some criteria.

So, it is not really worth sinking big bucks into re-doing pieces into something that will not be worth that much as a finished product. A valuable M1896 carbine, for example, will wear a correct M1896 rear sight which is essentially unobtainable. If you see one, chances are it will cost north of $600.

Sporeteized Krags, though, can be fun to own, collect and shoot! They can still be very accurate.

So, post some pictures and quit teasing us!!

We will help as much as we can, though. We love to see Krags reborn and fixed up in any form.

It takes some gun-smith skills and equipment to fit a Criterion barrel to a Krag action.

The Criterion Chamber requires finish reaming (for head-space) and proper 'timing' of threads, so that the factory 'extractor notch', rear-sight holes and 'flat' for front-sight base end up in correct orientation.

You have to provide a front-sight base to be fitted and brazed or silver-soldered on the barrel 'flat'.

Criterion barrels come drilled and taped with rear sight holes. They use a different thread. Original Krag rear-sight screws won't work.

It is likely the CMP has a lengthy wait time.

A replica front-sight installation will look something like the attached photo.

Hopefully, somebody responds that has direct experience with a Criterion barrel Krag installation.

---

I’ll post pictures when I get home.  I’m new here and will have to figure out how that works on this forum

Thanks.

If you need help let us know.

My 1896 Krag action along side a Savage/Stevens Enfield receiver

---

And the other side

---

Here's another carbine barrel that just recently came up for auction on Ebay:

  (You need to Login

Two Krag projects, rifle and carbine

---

And the 1896 carbine project

---

Nice looking parts and projects. Your bolts look like new old stock.

Do you have a local gun-smith, who does work on Krag and 1903 Springfield rifles?

You could have things made into a rather nice replica carbine. It requires someone who can do a proper job on the barrel work and front-sight mounting.

A few members have had successful Criterion barrel installations. (I hope they see and respond to your query).

Thanks and no, nobody local for installing barrels.  If I could find a good original barrel I'd snag it and if I could find someone to install a front sight on a Criterion I'd do that too - whichever worked out first.

Chuck Moline is an excellent gunsmith.  That said, my Krag was the last rebarrel he was going to do.
Suggest you give him a call and discuss. Great guy to talk with.   (You need to Login
Vic

'S99VG' - Unfortunately, I can not direct you to anyone who is doing nice Krag barrel work and sight installations.

Given the parts you are putting together, I would be very fussy and want a correct looking barrel, crown and sight installation.

I have not seen any front sight jobs that approach this:

---

As a stopgap, if you see a good original barrel 'cut-down' to 22" to 26" on ebay or GunBroker, it could be a good inexpensive option.

It can give you a 'carbine' to shoot and enjoy. It can be improved at a later date, when you find someone that can do the work.

Last year, I put a 'faux-NRA carbine' together from a stripped model 1898 action and accumulated parts.

I got a barrel with a very decent bore for around $45, plus shipping.
What I bought, as a 'cut-down', actually turned out to be a '96 carbine barrel with the front-site filed off and 'dovetailed'.

Someday, I may have a nice base installed on it.
To use the barrel in the meantime, I fitted a 1903 Springfield 'banded' front sight.

The barrel indexed fairly close to the 'mark' and head-spaced properly.

---

I would humbly suggest to anyone refinishing a stripped stock purchase a copy of Joe Farmers book as joe documents the finish used by Springfield and it is not simply boiled linseed oil.

I'm guessing skillful sanding & scraping, logwood stain, and immersion in hot vats of raw linseed oil.

As I said there is more to it that boiled linseed oil.

With all the long barrels sawed off to make sporters and faux carbines. There has to be a lot of barrel ends that were not thrown away. One might look for these and remove the original front sights to have a supply. It would not be too hard for a machinist or a gun smith to make the appropriate dove tail to slide them in and finish braze or silver solder.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all your help and yeah I'm being a bit fussy with both these guns.  Both actually started as stripped receivers with a lot of time spent looking for original parts that matched the condition of the metal as I got them.  However, as mentioned above, the bolts which are NOS 1896 parts.  I'm big into 03 Springfields.  I have one foray in the world of Garands that started with a receiver that was made in August of 41, the month but not year of my birth.  After its dinished, I have a Redfield 70 that may go on the rifle just to see what that rifle can do with a good peep sight.  After that, it will either get an 01 or 02 sight.  Meanwhile, the quest for the carbine barrel continues and as I said above, I'm on the fence when it comes to looking for a decent example of an original or trying to make a good show of it with a Criterion and after market front sight.  Again, thanks much for all the great input and advice.

Here is another pic of a few other ongoing projects and the carbine with a repro 1902 handguard and 02 sight.

---

FredC wrote on May 22^nd, 2020 at 2:16pm:

With all the long barrels sawed off to make sporters and faux carbines. There has to be a lot of barrel ends that were not thrown away. One might look for these and remove the original front sights to have a supply. It would not be too hard for a machinist or a gun smith to make the appropriate dove tail to slide them in and finish braze or silver solder.

One would think but I have never came across a barrel stub with the front sight.  I think they must have gone in the trash can back "in the day" with the survivors sent off during WWII scrap drives. 

When I've seen Krag barrel 'stubs' and removed front-sight bases come up on ebay, they have sold for expensive prices.

Removed bases get very mutilated by the removal efforts.

The front sight base was dovetailed and brazed to the Krag barrel-blank early in the manufacturing process and is a strong bond.

It became the reference/locating point for most of the machining and threading operations.

So it sounds like a long shot successfully salvaging a front sight off a stub.

I hardly throw away any piece of metal, when I do I usually regret it. I figured there were others like me out there. I shortened a Krag barrel from about 24' to 18 plus a little and kept the stub, who knows when I might need to replace a 30 caliber pistol barrel some day?

Figured a little heat and you could slide the base out sideways with no damage. Maybe it is not that easy.
The Criterion base in BR's photo would look right from a distance even though it is not a perfect replica.
BR, I went back and looked at your post number 10 in this thread, that front sight base looks to me like it is dovetailed. Is it me or an optical delusion?

I think bronze-brazing as done by SA holds pretty good.

If I were trying to recycle a Krag front-sight base, I'd be inclined to cut it out of the barrel and file or grind off surrounding metal.

butlersrangers wrote on May 22^nd, 2020 at 4:29pm:

I'm inclined to think bronze-brazing as done by SA holds pretty good. If I were trying to recycle a Krag front-sight base, I'd be inclined to cut and file or grind.

Had not even thought of that, hold the base in a vice and mill the barrel away. Only scrap about an inch of barrel that way. I do not really like torches anyway.
BR I added a question in my previous post. Is that a criterion base on #10, is it dovetailed?

I do not believe Criterion makes a Krag front-sight base.

I saved pictures of some repro-sight examples, I have seen over the years.
I believe both of these photos show an S&S Firearms replica base attached to a barrel.

I am not certain of the origin of the first barrel. It appears 'dove-tailed' and maybe poorly brazed or soldered.

The second photo is a Criterion barrel. Criterion seems to leave a 'flat' to locate the front-sight in relation to the rear-sight holes.
I'm not certain if the base is dovetailed, as well as, brazed or silver soldered.
The owner had to send it back for a re-do, since the base fell off, the first time.

It seems to me, more could be done with the S&S base/flange to blend it in with the barrel contour?

---

I'm thinking the front sights sold by SS have enough meat to dress them down to the barrel contour.  And after sweating it in one should be able to come up with something close to what the armory would have produced.  The question I have now is would it be best to solder the base on first then dress it down or do it the other way.  That is file the base round and then soldering it in place.  If I did that I would be sure to clamp the base into the dovetail.  However, either way looks like it would require re-bluing the barrel to make a clean presentation.

FYI - I also have this question posted on the CMP site:

  (You need to Login

As a matter of fact, I started it over there and was advised to post it on this forum.  I did receive a good answer on the CMP forum.  If you take a look, it is at the current end of the thread.

I have only seen Criterion barrels on internet sites. I don't own one, nor have I seen one in person.

Criterion barrels are in the 'white'.

CMP jobs are left in the 'White'. I believe they will install sights, if provided.

If they send barrel out for 'bluing', the action gets blued, too.

It's nice to have the CMP option. I'm sure customer satisfaction varies.

It would be nice to have a craftsman who currently specializes in Krag re-barreling.

I just picked up sporter 456713 from a local gunsmith after having the barrel shortened  and d/t for a regular dovetailed sight base as the solution for the overturned barrel/crooked front sight. I saved the Criterion stub with the S&S sight base attached that is in the picture BR posted above. I'll take a few close up pics of it then I'll  try to remove it. Curious how effective the installation was after having the first attempt fail.

Criterion mills a flat to locate the front sight. It has a very slight dovetail and appears to be there only to guide placement while attaching. Holding it up  to a light there is a very small gap between the front and rear of the base and dovetail and the dovetail doesn't blend completely with the base edges either. Someone in the CMP link the OP posted said you have to be careful with l/r position when attaching the base but I don't see any measurable excess flat on either side to have to center it between. The S&S base appears to very closely match the flat width...at least on this example.   

I will get pictures up asap - going to the range to try out the new sight configuration.

strange the things we do. I picked up the last 5 inches of a Krag barrel with the front sight base on it, at a gunshow for 5 bucks. It's in a bag with all my Krag parts.

Enjoy your weekend!

Why go away for a holiday weekend when you can stay home and look at Krag sight pictures?

Here are a couple backgrounds and some different angles of the S&S base on a Criterion barrel stub.

---

And a few more with two showing the small gap front and back between base and the shallow dovetail cut. 

---

So it appears the SS front sight is a loose fit in the Criterion dovetail - which might not really be a true dovetail in the first place.  But instead just a flat for "positioning" the sight.

Definitely not a working dovetail.

Put it in a vise between boards and gave it several good raps and it didn't budge.

Didn't take much with a mapp gas torch to separate them. Looks like a silver solder applied on both pieces then combined and heated again but others may know better about this process. 

---

FWIW - It appears the silver-solder joint was strong enough for our purposes.

IMHO - The S&S front-sight base would give a better appearance if the 'flange and dove-tail' idea was dispensed with.
The bottom of the sight base could be ground 'concave' to match the radius of the Krag barrel, near the muzzle.

This would facilitate placement for soft or silver-soldering, give more bonding surface, and better replicate original appearance.

To me the original sights look like they were either set into a flat or dovetail, affixed via braze or solder, and then milled or filed down to match the radius of the barrel.  I was thinking this also could be done  with the Criterion barrel and SS front sight.  However I have never held either part in my hand so I couldn't say for sure.

Now here's a possible stupid question.  Are there any "industrial strength" adhesives out there that could do the job?  After all, it isn't your dad's Elmer's glue anymore.

Springfield Armory bronze-brazed a lug into a dove-tail milled on the Krag barrel blank.

This was done at an early stage in the shaping and manufacture of the barrel.

In the course of manufacture this 'lug' took its final shape as the front-sight base.

That is why the original Krag front-sight base is so nicely contoured with the barrel and the joint is almost invisible.

butlersrangers wrote on May 23^rd, 2020 at 3:46am:

Springfield Armory bronze-brazed a lug into a dove-tail milled on the Krag barrel blank. This was done at an early stage in the shaping and manufacture of the barrel. In the course of manufacture this 'lug' took its final shape as the front-sight base. That is why the original Krag front-sight base is so nicely contoured with the barrel and the joint is almost invisible.

Well crud, that makes sense.  Thanks

There were 32 machining operations in the manufacture of the Krag barrel. Fabrication of the front sight base commenced at step #15.

---

Fascinating discussion. I'm generally lazy. I'd just buy a used carbine barrel and have it switched out. Front sight done by Springfield Armory.

Saves time and frustration.

Then I'd be out blasting away with it!

I'd like to be lazy too as I've been compiling parts for some time now.  And that was an informative read on how the sites were originally made that makes total sense.  Maybe we can all chip in and buy the milling machine that carved out the front sight stud  ;)

So I think this was already suggested, but for someone who had access to a milling machine could you mill the front sight off an original barrel leaving enough meat for a dovetail and install it on a Criterion barrel after carving out a corresponding dovetail?  It seems like that could give you a working surface with enough bite for soldering and contour for matching the OD radius of the Criterion barrel.

Today I've been thinking that the best thing to do would be to get a Criterion barrel and mount an 03 front band sight ala the NRA sporters that were sold nearly a century ago.  Looking through old posts the way to do this is to turn down the OD of a cut down barrel to fit the ID of the sight.  And then drill out the pin hole for securing it in all place.  Given that last step it seems like it would be best cutting down a rifle barrel to 22-inches as the "flat" on the Criterion carbine barrel would probably negate the effectiveness of the cross pin.  This would at least get me into a barrel that would both look and shoot good.  And who knows, maybe that original carbine barrel will somehow show up some day down the road. Thanks everyone for all your help, education and good advice.

The flat might help you as it could just be a groove cut in the flat
Actually buy the carbine barrel and the S&S front sight post and experiment if you cant make it work put a band sight on!

Not a bad idea and that’s what I’ll probably do.  And the elusive carbine barrel will have to wait for another day.  Thanks

Loctite glues could assist in holding the barrel band sight. Wicking grades could really firm up the fit after the sight is correctly positioned. Loctite seems to expand slightly when setting so it forms an interference fit. Would not be any good trying to replace the solder or brazing of an original sight. We use many grades of Loctite here, steel on steel or brass and copper it sets very fast, you have to be swift about getting things fully installed before setting. A wicking grade would allow you to take you time then let it wick in after you are certain the sight is where you want it.

I suggested the milling machine because I have several handy. I have no doubt that BR could do a good job with a file and other hand tools. One of his faux carbines he "turned" the end of the barrel with a file to fit the 03 band sight. You do not have to have a machine tool to do good work, just makes it easier.

The Criterion barrels look like a beautiful thing.

I do not fully understand how 'un-finished' their chamber is or the correct process of fitting a Criterion barrel to a Krag bolt and action.

Personally, I would have a Criterion barrel installed by a qualified professional.

(I have put a 'loose' original Krag barrel on a stripped 1898 action, but, I kind of understand that process, had adequate tools, and little money was involved).

Also, I would be loathe to file a 'step' at the muzzle of a Criterion carbine barrel. It is 'doable', but, irreversible.

IMHO - 's99vg' has gathered some nice components that could blend together to make a nice replica model 1896 carbine, (like the ones that were rebuilt using a model 1899 influenced stock, in the early 1900's).

It is my hunch that this is what 's99vg' really wants!
If that is the case, it would be better, with a Criterion Barrel, to have the installer silver-solder an S&S or original front-sight base during the job.

I like the look of the, so called, "DCM/NRA carbine" and have put together a couple of 'facsimiles'.

A 1903 'banded' front-sight can be installed without permanently 'stepping' a barrel.

The 1903 base can be 'honed' to increase the inside diameter until it will slip onto a short Krag or Criterion barrel.
I have used a 'slotted' shaft holding folded emery cloth to progressively enlarge the I.D. until it was a tight barrel fit. (1/2 round files help speed the process).

If there is a flat, dove-tail, or slight dimple on a barrel, the spline-slot on the 1903 base can be packed with some 'J.B. Weld' glue, prior to driving onto barrel and orienting with rear-sight.
Once hardened, the base will be securely retained, but, can be later removed with a brass mallet and heat. (The sight-band hides its 'engagement' with the barrel).

To address your speculation butlersrangers, yes I am trying to make this carbine look as spot on and as new as possible.  My carbine and rife projects both started from stripped receivers and proceeded with my scouring the landscape for parts that matched their respective finishes and degrees of wear.  And after all if that I think I developed an eye for what the original finish looked like.

I mentioned at the beginning of this post that I originally put this question up on another forum and that led me to hear.  The forum was the CMP forum and for anyone who's interested here's a link to that post:

  (You need to Login

The last comment I got stated that Criterion does not use the correct thread pitch in the rear sight holes.  Has anyone here ran into that problem?

I'm  not using the rear sight holes on my Criterion barrel but I believe they are 8x32 which are not original but more readily available which may be why they went with it.

mavt wrote on May 24^th, 2020 at 9:53pm:

I'm  not using the rear sight holes on my Criterion barrel but I believe they are 8x32 which are not original but more readily available which may be why they went with it.

Thanks!

Well I did it again, I was sure I had seen someone do a good job of mounting the 03 front sight on a barrel by filing a step. Thought it was BR, and I could not find the thread, then thought it may have  been carbonoutlaw as he has been posting some well done hand craftsmanship lately. Could not find it either, perhaps it was on another forum or I just dreamed about it.

How much has to come out by honing that it could work? Honing is a slow process .010 would take what would seem like an eternity. One or thousands would be arduous but possible for the patient.

FredC - The thread you were looking for about "stepping" a barrel for a 1903 front-sight was 'under other firearms'.

I 'bumped' the thread that contains my primitive ('Khyber Pass') method.

Thanks BR. I was worrying about myself.

I get it now, you just would not do it to a new Criterion barrel. Your results made it look like I wasted $20,000 on my tool room lathe and made it look like I should have bought files instead. :-)

Are new Springfield front sights available, if so how much should be removed to fit on the correct portion of an unmolested carbine barrel at 22 inches?

Can you hear the gears turning?

FredC:

The new 1903 "Springfield" (banded) front-sights are probably knock-offs that are made in China.

There seem to be lots of beat up originals floating around that could be rehabilitated with some file work and refinish.

I will have to get the old vernier out, later, and measure some parts to answer your questions on dimensions.

(FWIW - I don't mind 'tinkering', gambling, and experimenting on parts that are basically wrecked. But, filing on a nice new $200 barrel .... that's serious money)!

There's a guy on Facebook named Richard Ling.  Not sure if he's here on the KCA (if you are Rich, well done on being incognito, LOL).  He regularly resurrects Krag... and always to an as issued condition.  He never fakes anything or misrepresents/claims it's not resurrected.  He's one of the good guys!  Anyway, he has used Criterion barrels, and may know how to install the front sight to look accurate.  Maybe look him up.  He lives in Texas, BTW.

But I guess I don't need to tell you guys about this  :)

  (You need to Login

Well the reminder of the old thread is welcome remember you are dealing with geezers here that forget stuff almost as fast as we learn new stuff. .030 makes it time consuming to sand, lap or hone.

  (You need to Login

The fact the new ones are not made by SA and knock offs may vary in outside dimensions would make building a fixture to bore them on a CNC lathe more difficult. A CNC could bore the taper to exactly match the barrel at 22 inches or any other point on the barrel. A fixture could be set up so the coordinates for the length would be repeatable. So it could be set up and small batches run from time to time. Not sure it would work with knock offs. If anyone wants to try it out send me an original and a knock off.

Toolroom lathe joke:

Originally Posted by Ray Behner 
Your wife says, you love that stupid machine shop more than you love me, don't you?
YOU( truthfully) Just a place where I work.
Her: "You love that darned Lagun vertical mill more than you love me, don't you!"
You: (Truthfully) No! No I don't!
You: (Thinking silently to yourself) "Please, Lord, don't let her ask about the Hardinge HLV-H"

I may have a knock off to contribute to the cause

I did some quick measurements this evening on some barrel diameters, at the muzzle.

I also measured a couple of 1903 'banded' front-sight bases that came off of something?

1. Original 22" Krag model 1898 carbine barrel - .653 inch diameter, just back of the muzzle/crown.

2. 1896 Krag rifle barrel, cut down to 22" with a Springfield 1903 front-sight. Barrel diameter is .655", just in front of sight band.

3. 1903 Springfield barrel cut to 21". I filed a 'step' on this barrel. 'Step' diameter is .650" to accept 1903 'banded' front-sight.

Two used 1903 Springfield front sight bases were measured:

1. Inside diameter varied from .642" to .648".

2. Inside diameter varied from .647" to .648".

Just checked a 1898 serial number 266380 at 21 and 22 inches and got .658 at 22 inches and .663 at 21 inches. This is a 30 inch barrel just marked the spots at the designate lengths. Looks like .005 taper to an inch needs to be considered.
With BR's measured example worrying the sight out with a 3/8 rod with a hack sawed split for wrapping with 240 grit wet or dry paper. Keep the paper wet with kerosene or WD 40 or some other light solvent. Maybe this would take a couple of hours. With mine example all day and a pile of paper. The older one with .030 needing to be removed several days, maybe grinding then lapping would work.
If anyone else has a couple of original and copied 1903 sights that they want to contribute to an experiment? You do need to know I am slow getting around to this stuff and it may take a month or two.
Boring these would take a day or so to make a fixture, once the fixture is in hand about an hour or less to set up. Two minutes to run one and change the next sight. The more done at a time the better.

Criterion 22" barrel is .663 at the crown.