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 10 chronograph my krag (Read 11719 times)
mi-fordson
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chronograph my krag
May 24th, 2011 at 12:12am
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I chronographed my krag this weekend, shooting a lyman 311290 mold 210gr gas checked bullet. This is a sporterized krag with a 25" barrel.
imr 4759                   2400
1-1458 fps                 1-1415
2-1442                      2-1485
3-1452                      3-1407
                                4-1446

How much more can i get out of her in velosity and be safe, the brass and used primers look very good but i think the action is the week link.  I plan on hunting this fall with this krag and would like to get up to 1600-1700 fps with here if i can?
  
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kstone1020
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #1 - May 24th, 2011 at 12:20am
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I use standard Remington Core-lokt 180gr. Not sure of its ballistic coefficient. I may have to look it up and get back to you.
However, it does fantastic out of my krag for white-tail as well as black bear.

I never shot 210 grain out of my krag, couldnt even tell you what the velocity or spin drift is with a bullet that heavy out of it. I could also find the ballistic coefficient for 210gr. as well.
If youre interested. With that information you can compare and use the right grain for the application.
  
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Stewart
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #2 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 7:38pm
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Krags actually have strong actions; it's the bolt that was reported to have failed (110 years ago) when they were really still just figuring out the parameters of smokeless powder. The bolts reportedly cracked at the forward main locking lug. They were probably replaced; I've never seen a cracked Krag bolt and if you don't see a crack as described, you're in good shape. There were no reports of Krag actions failing like subsequent 1903 Springfields - just cracked bolts. Inspect your bolt periodically if you're shooting loads that you're not sure if the pressure level is OK. Are you casting your own bullets? Do you want to continue shooting cast bullets? As the previous responder implied, Remington manufactures 30-40 factory ammo that gives about 2450 fps. If I were hunting with my Krag, that's what I'd want to use. I've never heard of anyone having pressure problems with the currently available factory ammo and it's an effective loading. My own opinion is that a lot has been made of this legend of "weak Krag actions" and I think a lot of the facts have been forgotten (or never known) as it came down through the years. I have a Model 1898 that was made in 1902. I would trust it with somewhat higher pressure loads than I'd be comfortable with in an 1892 or 1896. The steel forging and heat treatment processes that were used for 1903 Springfields were also available and being used in 1902 and 1903 to make Krags. The steel is not inferior but the bolt locking mechanism had limitations. I've exceeded max. pressure limits with handloads by a grain or so with no signs of over pressure. You just have to use good judgement based on the condition and age of your particular gun and the available information.
  
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kstone1020
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #3 - Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:43pm
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I found BC information on a 210 Grain .308 caliber (which closely matches the performance of a 30-40)

fps/ mach     Cd        i7        BC(G7)       i1        BC(G1)
1500/ 1.34    0.379   1.033    0.306        0.574   0.551
2000/ 1.79    0.319   1.019    0.310        0.513   0.617
2500/ 2.23    0.280   0.984    0.321        0.494   0.640
3000/ 2.68    0.251   0.965    0.328        0.473   0.668
                Average: 1.000    0.316        0.514   0.619   
               Variation: 0.067    0.021        0.101   0.117

This is for a Sierra Match King 210 Grain G1 and G7. Dont have anything on Lymann, sorry

Hope it helps, and your Krag can shoot much higher than 1500fps. As long as the bore, bolt and barrel isnt damaged or mistreated you can go upwards of 2800+/- fps       
  
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fred
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #4 - Jun 16th, 2011 at 12:37am
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I'm far from an expert and if I am way off base others will let us know.  But, wasn't the original load for the Krag a 220 grain slug traveling at 2000 fps?  If I recall correctly, they later tried to raise the velocity up to about 2200 fps and that's when they began noticing cracked lugs. 

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

daveboy
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #5 - Jun 16th, 2011 at 6:26am
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As bolt actions go, Krags do NOT have "strong" actions. It makes no difference which component fails - bolt or receiver - the end result is the same. The single locking lug is the weak point - the shock load is asymmetric, and lug contact area is insufficient for more than about 45000PSI. Lapping the main lug so that the safety rib also bears is a poor fix at best, and doesn't make it OK to shoot hot loads, just may give a bit more safety margin.

If you need more pressure, buy a new rifle which will handle 55000-60000PSI. Enjoy the Krag for what it is. It will do almost anything a .308 will do - but if that isn't enough, get a better gun.

Just my $.02.
  
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #6 - Jun 16th, 2011 at 3:12pm
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Dick Hosmer is a true gentleman and he generously shares a wealth of useful knowledge.  His observations and 2 cents worth are priceless!
  (It is my understanding that the U.S. Krag has the same metallurgy as a low # 1903 Springfield.  I won't shoot a low # 1903 because a case failure allows hot gases to get into the single heat-treat action with possible disasterous results.  The Krag with its rimmed cartridge provides a Seal to hot gases entering the action in the event of most cartridge case ruptures.  Although not as strong as the low # 1903 action, the Krag is safer in the event of a cartridge case failure.  I shoot my Krags, but with low pressure loads).
  Dick Hosmer is correct.  If you want to shoot hot loads,  get a stronger action!
  
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Stewart
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #7 - Jun 16th, 2011 at 7:04pm
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I will stick with my statement that Krags have strong actions but weak bolts (due to their single lug). I do not (and did not) suggest that someone try loading and using 308Win pressure level reloads. The factory Remington loads for example are quite potent and perfectly safe with any Krag in good condition. If I owned a long barreled rifle, I would probably not shoot a lot of them (frequently). Also, regarding heat treatment at Springfield Armory, it is not ALL low serial number 1903s that had insufficient heat treatment, just SOME of the early serial numbers and I believe they've identified a particular time period, method and person/s at fault. I've never read that there is any record or account of Krag actions coming apart upon firing like those early 1903s that failed.
  
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kstone1020
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #8 - Jun 16th, 2011 at 8:35pm
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Heaviest projectile I shoot out of my Krag is 180Gr. I have successfully put 2300fps out of my krag with a Lapua 155Gr Scenar. I think I would be afraid to push a 200+ Gr. projectile to 2300fps. smaller projectile will produce less pressure since the gasses can escape the barrel faster due to the lighter projectile. Blunt force of a 200+Gr will defenately raise the PSI, making the action and bore more suseptable to damage or rupture. At least thats what I was taught.
  
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kragluver
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #9 - Jun 16th, 2011 at 11:23pm
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Bottom line is - don't exceed the max charge weight or muzzle velocity of published loads. I personally use the Lyman manual for my Krag data but have cross checked it against numerous other books. With the right bullet and slow powder, the Krag can almost match .308 ballistics (note I did not say pressures!).
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #10 - Jun 17th, 2011 at 1:24am
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The weakest link when firing a chambered cartridge is the cartridge case itself.  The U.S. Krag has a rimmed cartridge and headspaces on the cartidge rim.  The case walls are very well supported in the Krag chamber.  The action receiver has a single heat-treat which leaves the metal relatively hard and brittle.  Fortunately, if a cartridge case fails in a Krag, the cartridge rim keeps the hot gases and pressure contained in the barrel, propelling the bullet, without damage.  The Krag action bolt of course has one locking lug.  This has limited .30-40 Government loadings to maximum pressures of 40-45,000 lbs per square inch.  There are numerous loads, meeting all needs, that are safe in the Krag.  Norwegian Krags, in 6.5x55mm, are considered to have better steel and metallurgy than U.S. Krags.  However, they are also accepted as being a weaker action than the Swedish Mausers, with dual locking lugs, when it comes to reloading.
  The 1903 Springfield uses the rimless .30-06 cartridge which headspaces on the case shoulder.  The 1903 barrel-chamber does not fully support the cartridge case in the head area.  A case failure allows hot gasses and high pressure to enter the action.  The early (LOW #) 1903 actions are hard and brittle and more subject to burst or shatter in the event of a cartridge case failure.  During WWI, a double heat-treat was instituted that left the steel more elastic so that receivers were less likely to fail.
  
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Stewart
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #11 - Jun 17th, 2011 at 12:03pm
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The 1903 Springfield failures are more complex than most people understand and I want to share a good article. It's a kind of forensic study with a lot of statistical facts rather than rumour and legend. The website is (You need to Login to view media files and links). The low serial number caution is a rule of thumb to ensure safety, and we all seem to need rules of thumb. Improvements in the heat treating process, including "double heat treating" improved quality control but they were implemented because inspectors found that the previous heat treating methods were sometimes done properly and sometimes not, at various times by various workers, with no reliable temperature measurements performed. And, like the Krag, ammunition problems also played a role. Most early 1903s did not fail, a few later 1903s did fail (also suggesting that ammunition was a factor). If the Krag's weakness is the single lug bolt design, the 1903's is the bolt face, which doesn't enclose the case head and relies to a much greater degree on cartridge case strength. The Krag bolt, aside from the single forward lug, has a bolt face very much like the later Remington push feed bolt design, which encases the cartridge head (rim). All rifles, action types and chamberings have pressure limitations, just as these two rifles do. I do not agree that Springfield Krags categorically have weak or improperly hardened metal. They should not be categorized with "low Springfields" as having suspect metal strength. Krags have been used a long time with factory ammo of relatively high pressures, with no known failures (that I know of). I'm continually reading about "weak actions" and using "low pressure loads" with Krags. I've also fallen into the trap of using other poster's terminology and will clarify now that not only is the action strong, I don't agree that the bolt is weak; that word implies a defect in metal strength and that assertion isn't supported by any evidence. It's just a design with limitations, like all others.
« Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2011 at 1:15pm by »  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #12 - Jun 17th, 2011 at 1:39pm
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Stewart,

Wait a second - this is turning into a discussion of angels and pinhead dancing.

Any 100+ year-old mechanical contraption that will repeatedly endure explosions generating up to 45000psi is not "weak", OK?

What I am saying is that - IMHO - the Krag design, if ranked impartially among all other bolt actions, would not be at, or near, the top of the list.

As you say, all designs have their limitations, but not all readers are as informed as yourself, and to imply that the Krag is a "strong" action is, I believe, potentially misleading to the novice.

Interestingly enough, I understand that one of the hardest (older/milsurp) actions to destroy is the 6.5 Japanese Arisaka.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #13 - Jun 17th, 2011 at 7:30pm
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Dear mi-fordson:  This thread started getting scary when .308 Winchester Data began appearing.  Your query was about .30-40 cast bullet loads and increasing velocity for Deer Hunting.
  My old 1967 Lyman Manual gave data for Cast Bullet #311290 with Gas Check (#2 Alloy) and 2400 powder:  starting load 17 grains = vel. 1450 f.p.s. and  Maximum Load 22 grains = vel. 1725 f.p.s.
  Caution Caution - This is old data.  (There are also other powders that achieve higher velocities with lower pressure).  Always check current data and multiple sources.  I have not loaded or used cast bullet loads in my Krags.  But the Krag is famous as a fine cast bullet shooter.  (It is very important to know the actual bore diameter of your Krag's barrel).
  There is a Forum called "Cast Boolits".  If you have not checked it out, there is a wealth of information there.  Please always cross check loading data with multiple reliable sources.  Enjoy your Krag and know its limits.
  
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Stewart
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Re: chronograph my krag
Reply #14 - Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:07pm
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Dick,
You're right and everybody has made some good points. It's never wrong to be cautious but unfamiliar/new/young people hear the overly cautious tales so much, they're scared to even fire these rifles. With the low numbered Springfields, there was a heat treating problem (a small percentage were tempered too hot) but the failures appear to have resulted from coupling a gun that was tempered too hot with substandard WWI mass production ammo. Every indication is that the ammo was more to blame and that modern quality ammunition would be perfectly safe in one of those rifles. The trouble is you don't know if a rifle had over-pressure WW1 rounds fired through it in the past, or how many or how many bad rounds it takes to make one fail. It sounds like most low-numbered Springfields were in service through the end of WWII without other incident. I've never believed or suggested that a Krag should be tested at pressure levels of a 30-06 or 308 but I regularly hear and read that the Krag action is 'weaker than the Lee-Enfield' for example. Have you looked at an L-E bolt? It's no different than a Krag; it has one lug forward, one at the rear and the handle lug. Interestingly, US ammo manufacturers load the 303 no higher than the 30-40 yet European manufacturers load them nearly to 308 velocities and don't lose a wink. I like 45 grains of W760 with a 180 gr. RN and I can find only one source to recommend quite so much for a Krag rifle. I could probably find a dozen that recommend not exceeding 42 grains with W760 or H414. That's a big difference. But, I worked up from 42 until I was satisfied that I could slightly exceed the Winchester recommended maximum which is 44.5 grains. I wouldn't necessarily be comfortable doing that with any Krag.
Mark
  
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