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US Navy serial number listings? (Read 6005 times)
Norwich06
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US Navy serial number listings?
Feb 19th, 2012 at 2:55pm
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Hi Everyone,
I'm trying to locate info on my grand-uncles 30-40 Krag.  It appears to have been one that may have been aboard the USS Texas during WWI, and I 'm hoping to find a Navy listing of serial numbers for small arms aboard ship.  Does such a list exist?
Thanks!
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: US Navy serial number listings?
Reply #1 - Feb 19th, 2012 at 3:12pm
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If one does, I've never heard of it. Was he ship's company or a Marine? The Krag was not widely used by either branch.
  
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Norwich06
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Re: US Navy serial number listings?
Reply #2 - Feb 19th, 2012 at 4:16pm
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He was a Yeoman 2nd Class.  I had seen that the 30-40 Krag rifles are listed as small arms aboard ship at the time that he was stationed on the USS Texas.  This was found on the wesbite for the ship itself.
  
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5MadFarmers
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Re: US Navy serial number listings?
Reply #3 - Feb 19th, 2012 at 5:01pm
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Dick Hosmer wrote on Feb 19th, 2012 at 3:12pm:
If one does, I've never heard of it. Was he ship's company or a Marine? The Krag was not widely used by either branch.


Dick, it was used exclusively by the Marines and Navy for a time.  Due to appropriations technicalities it was harder for the Navy to get rid of the Krag than the Army.  The Navy and Marines first received Krags about 1900 and the first appropriation for '03s was in 1910 (for 2500 rifles total).  They were still buying Krags from the Army in 1911.  They had to as having too many types in service is a problem. 

During WW1 they asked for enough money to buy 150,000 rifles to finally replace the Krags.  The Army, standardized on the M-1917, was willing to let them have all of production until the number was met.

The battleships were supposed to replace their Krags in 1910 after the fleet exercise.  Not enough guns were available for that and it took until 1919 to finally get the Navy and Marines fully equipped with the '03.

Don't forget that the Marines aren't exclusive in "going ashore" at that time.  The ship had landing parties composed of the sailors.  There weren't enough Marines on the ships to fill that role.

I am unaware of serial lists for the Navy ships.  The Navy was known to stamp the guns with the ship's name.
  
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waterman
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Re: US Navy serial number listings?
Reply #4 - Feb 19th, 2012 at 5:40pm
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My understanding is that the USN/USMC bought 15,000 Model 1895 Lee Navy rifles from Winchester in 2 orders, the first for 10,000 and the second for 5,000.  There is some discrepancy in my references, but apparently the bulk of production was completed late in 1897.  The USMC & USN used the rifles & Colt machine guns in the war with Spain, in the Philippines and in China.  The 6mm cartridge was found to be lacking in accuracy at ranges greater than 800 yards and to lack knockdown power.  The relatively thin rifle barrels did not last long with corrosive primers, hot burning propellants and steel jacketed bullets.  The problems were with the cartridge, not the rifle.

In 1900, the USN/USMC adopted the Krag and the 30/40 cartridge, replacing the Lees with Krags whenever & wherever possible, presumably on a unit-by-unit basis.  Within a couple of years, the Lees were gone, mostly sold to Bannerman.  Springfield Armory was working on a Krag replacement beginning in 1900, but the Krag was available in quantity & was still in production. 

With the expansion of forces in WW1, there were not enough 1903s to go around.  Krags remained in service with units that would not see prolonged ground combat in France & that would not need to rely on the AEF in France for ammunition resupply.  Krags would have remained in ships' armories and probably would have been issued to the Fleet Marines in 1917-1918.  The 1903s were needed by the Marines on the ground in France.

The USN/USMC retained Krags as sub-caliber training devices for many years.  In 1961-62, I was a flunky at Lualualei Naval Ammunition Depot & participated in an inventory.  There was Krag ammo (M-1925 180 grain sub-caliber loads) still in the magazines.  I wrote it on my clipboard & asked about it.
  
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Norwich06
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Re: US Navy serial number listings?
Reply #5 - Feb 20th, 2012 at 2:38am
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Do you know where on the rifle the Navy may have stamped the name of the ship?
Thanks!
  
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Marcus99
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Re: US Navy serial number listings?
Reply #6 - Feb 20th, 2012 at 4:53am
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waterman wrote on Feb 19th, 2012 at 5:40pm:
In 1961-62, I was a flunky at Lualualei Naval Ammunition Depot & participated in an inventory.  There was Krag ammo (M-1925 180 grain sub-caliber loads) still in the magazines.  I wrote it on my clipboard & asked about it.


Wow very cool, I didn't know they have inventoried ammo for that long. Out of curiosity what condition was it in?
  
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waterman
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Re: US Navy serial number listings?
Reply #7 - Feb 20th, 2012 at 7:42am
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It looked OK.  Packed in ordinary tan-colored pasteboard 20-round boxes.  FA headstamps from the late 1920s.  Spitzer bullets, the kind of flat base match bullets used in the 30-06 before the 172-grain boattails. 

A Chief told me that the ammo was for the M-1903A2 sub-caliber device.  Those were used in some WW-2 and earlier guns used by the USMC and apparently in some of the Navy's 3-inch & 5-inch guns. 

I probably could have appropriated some, but I was afraid to shoot it.  I had a 96 (probably Bannerman) sporter (still have it) but I thought the loads might have been too hot.

A couple of years ago, I got a copy of Brophy's book and read about Krags used as sub-caliber devices.   Could a Chief be wrong?  Brophy also wrote that the M2 Springfield (22 Long Rifle) barreled action was used as a sub-caliber device.  Now I'm confused. I have never seen a device, only the printing on ammo boxes.

About then, I also learned that the Krag sub-caliber ammunition was loaded to a MV of about 1960 fps.  That stuff would have worked safely in a Krag but the loaded rounds were too long to function through the magazine.

  
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5MadFarmers
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Re: US Navy serial number listings?
Reply #8 - Feb 21st, 2012 at 11:15pm
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M-1903A2 subcaliber.
  
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waterman
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Re: US Navy serial number listings?
Reply #9 - Feb 22nd, 2012 at 1:26am
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Gasp!  That means that the Chief Gunner's Mate was WRONG!  Unthinkable?
  
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