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1898 Krag Carbine question (Read 2890 times)
Jul 23rd, 2012 at 4:22pm

remington   Offline
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There is a Carbine on a web sight that is an 1898. By the serial number it dates Sept-1898. However, it has a 1902 sight. Could that be correct?
 
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Reply #1 - Jul 23rd, 2012 at 5:32pm

JOHN42768   Offline
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Hi, The '98 carbine has many features that can help you. Ser. ranges apprx. 117M to 134M. The correct stock is only applicable to that carbine. '98 cartouche, sling bar/ loop, '96 carbine "C" sights, 22" barrel with rounded muzzle crown, mortised front sight base to name a few. Not to say someone could  have changed the sight, barrel band and hand guard. '98 carbine is by far the most faked. Post some photos and see what responses come up. Compare it to the site photo section and I have mine posted under carbine eye candy & 2. It is about seven pages of post in. I compare the '96 to '98 to '99. It might help you spot any differences. I'm sure others will respond. John
« Last Edit: Jul 23rd, 2012 at 7:13pm by JOHN42768 »  
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Reply #2 - Jul 23rd, 2012 at 6:58pm

butlersrangers   Offline
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remington:  Many of the 1898 Carbines were "up-graded" to 1899 Carbine configuration when they required overhaul.  These 1898 Carbines will be found with the long for-end 1899 style carbine stock.  I imagine 1896, 1901, and 1902 Carbine rear sights were all utilized on re-builds (with appropriate hand-guards).  The re-built Carbines are legitimate issue arms.  Just not as desirable as the unaltered version.
« Last Edit: Jul 23rd, 2012 at 9:02pm by butlersrangers »  
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Reply #3 - Jul 25th, 2012 at 1:51pm

remington   Offline
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Butlersrangers and John42768. John, I have kept your photos of those great carbines. Maybe both of you would take a look at the Carbine and give me an opinion. It is on Gunbroker item 297758058. thank you---Charlie
 
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Reply #4 - Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:53pm

butlersrangers   Offline
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remington:  I've been watching that carbine myself.  The owner does not specify the condition of the bore.  I believe the serial # is 132592 (Sept. 1898).  The exterior metal and wood appear quite good.  I believe it is a correct up-graded 1898 Carbine.
 
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Reply #5 - Jul 25th, 2012 at 9:44pm

psteinmayer   Offline
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My 1898 Rifle is serial number 132598!
 
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Reply #6 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:53am

Dick Hosmer   Offline
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psteinmayer wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 9:44pm:
My 1898 Rifle is serial number 132598! 



And that's the problem with the "1898 Carbine".

You almost never know if one is real, or not. The safest position is to assume it isn't.

All one needs to do is take a common 1899 and fit it with a believable receiver - voila - instant "rare" gun. In that condition, if marked 1899, the price would probably be at triple what it is now.

FWIW, there are no (as in zip, zilch, nada) carbines known between 131535 and 133725. Caveat emptor!
 
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Reply #7 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 11:01am

JOHN42768   Offline
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Charlie, As stated by Butler's & Dick it is a crap shoot. A nice looking firearm. It has what appears to be a '98 carbine rear sight. I only can see the C on the base. I can't see anything on the front blade. The stock appears to be '99. I can't make out any cartoushe. The serial number is not listed in SRS books. It still falls loosely within the know bracket of numbers. A large percentage of the '98's were installed in '99 stocks with '98 or later rear sights. So I guess unless you could physically look for any marks that could indicate a barrel change over who knows. Never say never. John
 
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Reply #8 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 11:54am

remington   Offline
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Thank you again gentlemen. I also get a refinished feeling and that barrel band looks awfully "newish". Charlie
 
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Reply #9 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 11:55am

butlersrangers   Offline
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Charlie:  I would always defer to Dick Hosmer and MadFarmers on fine points of Krag production and models.  They have a sounder knowledge and longer experience with correct specimens and original documentation.
 
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Reply #10 - Jul 27th, 2012 at 12:53am

Dick Hosmer   Offline
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This will give you some idea of the odds:

5003   1898 Carbines were made, with short stocks, etc. Very soon after production they were called back and restocked.

Around 160+ are recorded.

13 are known @ 118xxx
52 are known @ 119xxx
49 are known @ 120xxx
Everything else is in single digits, but there are apparently significant blips at 125xxx and 131xxx.

Clearly, that (118-120xxx) is where the bulk of them probably occur (SA made arms in batches, based on the quarter of the year, and changing over the stocking machinery) upset only by pulling receivers from the bins using FILO).

The lowest verified specimen is 112864; the highest 134317, giving a difference of 21453 (plus some statistical allowance for not being positive of the high/low) say 22000 - dividing by 5003 = 4.4, which inescapably leads to the conclusion that around 70% of the offerings are, shall we say,"incorrect"!

Joe Farmer says he can positively ID genuine 1898 Carbines. When he makes such an unequivocal statement, I tend to believe it to be accurate, though in the case he has not shared the method with me.

So - it's a crap-shoot.  Smiley
 
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Reply #11 - Jul 28th, 2012 at 5:01pm

remington   Offline
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Now I am leery. The rear sight is a 1902 type 3 with the auxillary peep. It does contain a "C" but on the right side, not the left. And the top graduation goes to 20. Does that indicate carbine or rifle?   Charlie
 
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Reply #12 - Jul 28th, 2012 at 7:33pm

JOHN42768   Offline
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Charlie, Poyer's book states left, but Brophy states right side of base. Since the bases for the '98 & '02 are basically the same with different leafs. The difference in the base for the carbine is the height of the base. The '96, '98 & '02 carbine has the C on the right side and '01 it is on the left side. According to "The Krag Rifle" by Lt.Col. William Brophy. Now that the new photos have been added, one can see the back of the sight. Your call, John
 
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Reply #13 - Jul 28th, 2012 at 9:20pm
5MadFarmers   Ex Member

 
JOHN42768 wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 11:01am:
So I guess unless you could physically look for any marks that could indicate a barrel change over who knows. Never say never. John


The barrels on the 1898 are different from most, but not all, 1899 carbines.  The difference can be identified without disassembly.

Dick Hosmer wrote on Jul 27th, 2012 at 12:53am:
13 are known @ 118xxx
52 are known @ 119xxx
49 are known @ 120xxx
Everything else is in single digits, but there are apparently significant blips at 125xxx and 131xxx.

Clearly, that (118-120xxx) is where the bulk of them probably occur (SA made arms in batches, based on the quarter of the year, and changing over the stocking machinery) upset only by pulling receivers from the bins using FILO).


Dick that's some weird statistical foo and results in a conclusion based on faulty logic.  It'd take a lengthy post to explain why.

Quote:
Joe Farmer says he can positively ID genuine 1898 Carbines.

Unaltered 1898 carbines.  While my accuracy rate with altered editions is likely respectable it's truly reading tea leaves.

JOHN42768 wrote on Jul 28th, 2012 at 7:33pm:
Charlie, Poyer's book states left, but Brophy states right side of base. Since the bases for the '98 & '02 are basically the same with different leafs. The difference in the base for the carbine is the height of the base.


I have some with it on the left and some with it on the right.  The marking isn't significant really.  The key, and you're seeing it there, is the height of base.  Regardless of marking the carbine base can be identified by height.  If you found an unmarked base with the correct height it'd clearly be a unmarked carbine base as the rifle base it taller.  Height is the determinate.

I don't like the finish mismatch on that - receiver/side plate.

 
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Reply #14 - Jul 28th, 2012 at 9:50pm
5MadFarmers   Ex Member

 
Actually it shouldn't take long.  If I took a city phone book and tore it into pieces and then gave you 9 pages it's possible that 7 are sequential and the other two random from later in the book.  "Based on documented records we can say that the bulk of the people in Colusa had last names starting with the letters B, C, and D with a few having last names starting with H and some with S.  If you find a letter sourced from anyone with the last name Thompson it's likely a forgery."

Under 200 serials from a base of 5,000 isn't statistically significant. Especially given those 200 will be in larger groups on single records.  So if I find an issue document with 30 guns, 3 chests, it's well over 10% of found numbers and paints an inaccurate picture of the range.

FWIW Mook's list had him owning 132231 - listed as a carbine.  I own 131545 and I'm comfortable with it.

It's unsafe to poke into the range with SRS's records and draw conclusions.  Best to establish the bookends instead.
 
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