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Beachbumbob
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Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Apr 4th, 2013 at 10:15am
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Have the opportunity to purchase an 1898 rifle in the 300K+ range.  Actually have the choice of two.  Both are VG++ condition and at this point, only difference I can tell is the rear sight.  One is 1901 and other is 1902.  I've shot the 03 Springfield for almost 50 years and understand the 1901 sight very well and actually like it, but the 1902 sight intrigues me.

Which is the preferred sight for recreational shooting?  Would be mostly paper at up to 300 yards and the gong at 300.  While I know this is kind of an apples and oranges thing, I sure would like to hear from experienced users. 

The plan is to reload using cast bullets so velocities and pressures would be lower than max.  Sight graduations wouldn't match actual performance, but range book will keep all that info straight.

Any thoughts on things I should avoid? 

Thanks,

Bob

p.s.  I know - get both and believe me I'm trying.  I've been looking for 'the' Krag for at least 10 years and now they are coming out of the woodwork it seems.  Just buy your first one and there they come.  Smiley
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #1 - Apr 4th, 2013 at 12:40pm
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Beachbumbob:  If you like shooting paper targets with the 1903 Springfield sight, you will probably prefer the 1901 Krag sight.  I like both sights.  For hunting applications and simplicity, I prefer the 1902 sight.  Personally, I would buy the rifle with the best bore.   Bores being equal, I would buy the rifle having the prettiest wood and metal finish.  If the matches you shoot do not require original sights, I would use a Redfield, "no drill", peep sight that requires only removal of the magazine cut-off and no alteration to the stock.
  
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Beachbumbob
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #2 - Apr 5th, 2013 at 2:09am
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Thanks for the reply.  Like I said in original message they are just about twins except for the sight.  I've gaged the MW on both and they are both just less than 3 on the scale.  Both have nice matched wood with about same number of bumps and while both are nice, neither just jumps out at you as better.  Nice cartouches, etc, etc.  Just the different sights which could/should be correct for the period.

I just thought that someone might have had issues with the 1902 sight vs the 1901.  I'm comfortable with the 1901 style sight since it is so similar the the M1903 sight so that wouldn't be a big consideration.

I'm kind of leaning towards the 1902 because it is something new, and even this old dog can learn new things as long as it is simple!

Thanks again for letting me into the treasure trove of information and experience in here.  Wish I could contribute more............

Bob
  
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madcratebuilder
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #3 - Apr 5th, 2013 at 1:21pm
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The 1901 rear sight is very similar to the M1903 rear sight.  I prefer the 1901 over the 1902, the small peep on the 1902 is very hard for me.

I fight all barrel mounted rear sights, struggle with all of them.  '03, Mauser, Enfield can beat me up good.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #4 - Apr 5th, 2013 at 6:52pm
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I go the other way...  I much prefer the 1902.  I've only recently started using the peep, but I love the way the 1902 adjusts!  I also think target acquisition (sans peep) is better with the 1902.  Beyond that, I agree with Butlersrangers...  go with the best bore and rifling!
  
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Beachbumbob
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #5 - Apr 5th, 2013 at 7:00pm
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After I turned 60 last year I did notice that it wasn't as clear a picture as it had been but my groups haven't opened up that much yet, but I know the time is coming.

Butlersranger is right about the Redfield peep and one of those might find it's way here if I am able to scrounge one up cheap enough, just because.

I learned to shoot almost 50 years ago on a M1903.  My best friends dad, who was a serious competitor back in the 30s taught us.  So I learned how to use the M1903 sight before I knew about what a peep sight was.

I just picked up a Krag about a month ago after searching for a nice one for about 5 years.  Then this dropped into my lap and couldn't turn down the offer.

I've pretty much decided to get the one with the 1902 sight so I can justify the difference to the comptroller!  Grin

She's pretty lenient, but that doesn't mean she's a dummy!

Bob
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #6 - Apr 5th, 2013 at 7:05pm
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Beachbumbob wrote on Apr 5th, 2013 at 7:00pm:
She's pretty lenient, but that doesn't mean she's a dummy!



I hear ya Brother!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #7 - Apr 5th, 2013 at 8:57pm
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It is possible to purchase just the 'swing up' peep for the 1902 Krag sight from S&S Firearms (Glendale, N.Y.).  If you need a bigger aperture to use this feature on your 1902 sight,  obtain a spare 'peep' plate.  Drill the poorer condition plate to increase the aperture size.  Save the better plate for originality.  Also, low power readers with high impact lenses can be used as Shooting Glasses to bring sights into sharp focus.  The target bull may be fuzzy, but that doesn't matter much.
  
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docbob
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #8 - Apr 6th, 2013 at 4:59pm
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Bob,
You had such a pleasant "problem" but think You'll be pleased with your decision. I have a '98 (1901) with the 1901 sight, in probably the same condition as the two rifles You've described. A good friend sold it to me "below cost" along with the cleaning rod sections and oiler in the butt.

   Congratulations,
      DocBob
  
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Bob_S
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #9 - Apr 7th, 2013 at 5:01am
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If you own an O'Hare micrometer for the M1905 rear sight of the M1903 rifle (0r the Ray-Vin recent reproduction), you can use that to set the elevation on the M1901 Krag sight precisely and repeatably.   Windage is another matter.  There is a friction clamp on the front of the M1901 sight ... you move the lever to release the lock, and then you must push the sight with your fingers, and relock the with the lever.  There are marks (called "points") on the sight base for reference, and each of these "points" is equal to six minutes of angle: 6 " at 100 yards, 12" at 200 yards, &tc.   Needless to say, this method is neither precise, nor very repeatable, but it is simple.  You do have the choice between a "notch sight" with the ladder down for less than 400 yards, or the tiny peep with the ladder up.

I have run over the alloted characters, so will have to split this post.  Stay tuned ......

Resp'y,
Bob S.

  

USN Distinguished Marksman No. O-067
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Bob_S
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Re: 1901 vs 1902 sight, Part Deux
Reply #10 - Apr 7th, 2013 at 5:05am
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The M1902 rear sight is a tangent type with better windage adjustment.   The elevation is locked with a clamp slide.  The sides of the "ladder" and the clamp are serrated to help prevent the elevation clamp from moving as the rifle recoils.  The size of these serrations determines how fine you can adjust the elevation, and the sights were made with two sizes of serrations.  I believe they are .080" and .040".  The coarser serrations (the larger) limit the precision of adjustement to 25 yards on the elevation scale.  The true minutes of angle varies with where you are on the elevation scale, so it's not very convenient of you are shooting something other than the ammunition that the sight is regulated for ... the 220 grain FMJ at about 2000 fps at the muzzle.  The finer serrations allow adjustment to 12-1/2 yards, but it takes some dexterity (and practice!) to be able to utilize that precision.   

The windage is a moveable carrier on the rear of the "ladder".  The carrier is moved by screw threads with a knurled thumb screw.  There are markings in the fixed and moveable parts of the base for reference.  These "points" are equal to four minutes of angle on this sight note the difference from the M1901 sight.  Since the adjustment is driven by a screw, it has better precision and repeatability, but all the sights I have seen have some backlash in the screw, so the shooter will need to pay attention to when the carrier actually starts to move.

Advantges and disadvantages?  See Part three ....

Resp'y,
Bob S.
  

USN Distinguished Marksman No. O-067
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Bob_S
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #11 - Apr 7th, 2013 at 5:27am
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The M1901 sight has the potential for more precise and repeatable elevation adjustment, if you have a suitable sight micrometer.  The aperture is way too small for most us; if you are target shooting, remember that you need to be able to see and read your target number as well as focus on the front sight.  The sight was made with two different sizes of aperture:  too small, and way, way, WAY too small. If the light is dim, you're scrod.  Already talked about the ad hoc windage adjustment.

The swing-up aperture on the M1902 sight is also way too small, at least for me.  I used to leave it down;  on my "shooter" sight, I just removed it and put it in a safe place.  The notch is also way too small, or too "fine" for me, even when I was 18 years old.  The notch on my shooter sight was opened up so there is plenty of white on each side of the front post.  That was 45 years ago; if you do that today, someone would probably lynch you.

If you are only going to shoot 200 yards on those huge targets (SR) used in the CMP matches, then the ad hoc windage adjustment of the M1901 sight is not a show-stopper.  You'll probably just get centered up and not have make any changes through the match.

If you plan on shooting more precision matches at 300-600 yards, you will probably have to make several windage changes in the course of a 20-shot match, unless you can determine the average conditions and sucessfully wait out the changes ... and your windage adjustments with 30-40 velocities will be way bigger than with .308, 30-06 or whatever else you may be used to shoot mid-range with.  In that case, the screw adjustable windage of the 1902 sight is a decisive advantage.  The less than precise elevation adjustments can be dealt with ... there is seldom any reason to change elevation setting once you know your zero, and most shooters can hold off for elevation much better than for wind. 

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.  Wink

Resp'y,
Bob S.
  

USN Distinguished Marksman No. O-067
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Beachbumbob
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #12 - Apr 8th, 2013 at 11:25am
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Bob_S,

Thank you SO much for walking me through the pros and cons of both sights.  At this point, all I have available to me is a 100 yard range so I'm not going to be duplicating the 2000 fps military loads in my shooting.  I've heard rumors of a private 300 yard range in the area, but as yet haven't met anyone who knows more than 'a buddy of mine knows of someone who......'. 

I'm located between two nice 1000 yard military ranges but they have pretty much locked down outside use of them, even by retired personnel.  I would once however, like to take them, and other rifles obtained since the closure of the ranges, out to try out their legs.  I scrounged up 3 boxes of commercial ammo for them and a 50 piece bag of brass.  I'm thinking that if I get another 50 piece bag that will give me 80 rounds apiece for them and that should last me a long time-particularly if I'm shooting light loads.  I'll neck size them only to specific rifles like I do the .303 and I should be good for 8-10 uses each or more depending.  That may sound like a lot for just a 'toy' but I've had the dubious experience of running out of ammunition in a firefight a couple of times so I am always somewhat of a 'hoarder' when it comes to ammunition.

Again, I need to say thanks for your explanation of the sight.  But I do have one more question.  You mentioned that the 1902 sight elevation slide was clamped similar to the 1901 sight so does that mean I can use my O'Hare device with it if I want to get real serious about shooting long distance with the 1902 sight?

Bob
  
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Bob_S
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #13 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 2:33am
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Other Bob,

No, the O'Hare and similar sight micrometers will not work with the M1902 sight.  The M1902 is a tangent sight, similar to what is on most Mausers.  The M1901 sight is a ladder sight, very similar to the rear sight of the M1903 rifle: hence the O'Hare and similar adjusters will work.   

With the M1902 sight, you have only discreet, not continuous, elevation adjustments.  The size of the adjustments depends on the size of the serations on the sight.

To give you some idea of the scale of "coarse" vs fine adjustments,  here is a close-up pic of the side of a M1902 leaf with "coarse" serations:

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And here is a closeup of a M1902 leaf with "fine" serations:

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With coarse serations, you can make adjustments of 25 yards.  The value of that "25 yard" adjustment will vary with where you are on the sight.  Here is a table from an old source that gives some indication of what moving the elevation slide "25 yards" will do to your POA:

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You can get 1/2 of 25 yards, or 12-1/2 yards with the fine serations.  You'll have to do some interpolation as the Table only addresses 25 yard incremements.

In my one and only match shooting a M1898 infantry rifle at 600 yards (1977 or 78 ... will have to find the book), I used a M1902 rear sight with fine serations.  Other than one massive brain fart of moving the windage in the wrong direction, I did "OK"  ... 180 with a small X count.

Resp'y,
Bob S.
  

USN Distinguished Marksman No. O-067
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Beachbumbob
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Re: Preferred sight for shooting-1901 vs 1902
Reply #14 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 4:48am
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Thanks for clearing that up.  That table is worth it's weight in powder or primers!  Gold has become such a cheap commodity nowadays!  Huh

The 'Other' Bob
  
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