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 25 Bob's feed problem (Read 12759 times)
butlersrangers
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Bob's feed problem
Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:18pm
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Beachbumbob has recently acquired a Model 1896 Krag.  He has reported that cartridges are hanging up and not feeding correctly.  He was suspecting a problem with the magazine-door/follower spring.  Bob posted a picture of his side-plate which has a rough interior.  I suspect his side-plate may be a Model 1898 plate that someone thinned down to serve as a replacement for the 1896 plate (which has a thinner tenon).  I do not have a Model 1896 Krag side-plate to compare.  However, looking at my references, it appears both 1896 and 1898 Krag side-plates should have a very sharp bottom edge.  Bob's side-plate has a very blunt lower edge.  This would suggest his plate was ground on the inside to thin the tenon at the front of the plate, which inserts into a mortise, machined into the receiver.  The unusual 'grind marks', on the inside of his side-plate, are probably an attempt to restore necessary clearance.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #1 - Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:28pm
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A couple of 1898 side-plates showing the sharp lower edge and the smooth interior finish.
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #2 - Feb 4th, 2014 at 9:21pm
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FWIW, I've never seen a sideplate - early or late - that looked anything like his. Cannot tell if it is a shadow, but the feed track scratches certainly take a jog (and maybe a dip?) at one point. Someone appears to have dug around in there, possibly in an attempt to feed a short bullet, or even maybe blanks? I'm guessing the problem will go away with a smooth plate - the spring only provides in-line pressure - the up-over-and-in-swoopty-do is dependent on smooth, properly shaped surfaces.
  
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Beachbumbob
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #3 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 7:09am
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That is not a shadow.  It has been ground as you said.  I've tried to get an end on picture of both the 98 and 96 sideplate, but I have been letdown by either technology or technique so far (possibly both).

I cannot (and will not) say that this wasn't a ceremonial rifle.  The bore is shiny dark with some pitting in it.  But not nearly as bad pitting as some known ceremonial rifles I've seen.  And I've had rifles that were more pitted than this that shot well - so if the throat isn't burnt out I have high hopes.  The muzzle measures just over 4 on the gauge I use for my Garands.  Not sure if this is a proper measurement device for Krags but .300 diameter is .300 diameter right?

I am also fairly confident, given the evidence and your expertise, that this is a 98 sideplate someone has worked over.  In a quick look, didn't see anyone advertising a 96 sideplate and for something this particular, wouldn't trust just any part supplier.  Ideas?

I also checked the spring pressure of one of my 98s with the sideplate removed.  An 'inginiir' would say that the 96 is about 2 or 3 smidgens less than the 98 'but close enough for govmint work'.

As always - thanks!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #4 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 2:50pm
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Beachbumbob:  If your magazine-door ('gate') functions properly, it's a good sign the follower spring is good.
   J. DeChristopher, (You need to Login to view media files and links), (215)297-8103, lists 1894-96 and 1896 side-plates, at $85 and $95, respectively.  Also, there are two gentlemen, listed in the KCA Classifieds, who sell parts. 
  
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Beachbumbob
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #5 - Feb 9th, 2014 at 8:01pm
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Drug the other 2 of my 1898s (1 rifle, 1 carfle) out of the back of the safe since they were due for their annual BLO bath.  I had to examine both the sideplates since I had them out.  Surprisingly enough, none of them would feed the 2nd round when mounted on the 1896.

Also mic'd them and all were pretty much the same. But I didn't have any doubts the information already received wasn't right.  But what else do you do when you're trying to learn?  Where exactly is the 96 sideplate thinner than the 98 sideplate?

Surprisingly, the spring tension on these two was greater than on the 96 and the first 98 rifle I compared it to.

Thanks.....
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #6 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 5:06am
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Beachbumbob:  I do not have a Model 1896 Krag or an 1896 side-plate, in my collection, to allow parts comparison.  In "The Krag Rifle Story", by Franklin B. Mallory, he states the tenon thickness increased .02" on the 1898 side-plate.  (The tenon is the tongue, on the front edge of the side-plate, which inserts into the front of the left side receiver opening).  On page 203, Mallory shows side views of 1892 and 1892 side-plates.  There seem to be several subtle differences in shape.  It is surprising if an unaltered 1898 plate will fit on your 1896 receiver.  It should bind and fail to fit close against the action with out being forced.  Is it possible some metal was removed from the inner receiver wall where the tenon 'hooks'?
  
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madsenshooter
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #7 - Feb 10th, 2014 at 8:50pm
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Wouldn't feed the second round.  Do they pop up to proper position?  We're going to be talking different rifles, but one of my 92/96 rifles that has a 96 sideplate will occasionally hang up with cases that are neck sized only.  Guess there's just enough of a difference in the shoulder diameter, and the thickness of the sideplate to wedge them between receiver and sideplate.  Two cures for mine.  Put a 92 sideplate on, or full length size cases that will be used for rapid fire.
  
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Beachbumbob
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #8 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 2:08pm
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Madsenshooter:  That is with factory new ammo that it will not push the 2nd round into position to be picked up when you push the bolt forward.  The 2nd and subsequent rounds seem to hang up 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch shy of where they need to be.  I've got both 180 RN and 150 Spitzer and both do the same thing.  Like you I segregate ammo to a particular rifle and only neck size them.  A trick I learned years ago for the .303 Enfield that I apply universally now to all but stuff I reload for semi's.

Butlersranger:  I checked last night and the finish on both sides of the area where the side plate fits certainly looks like the quality work we've come to expect from the Springfield craftsmen who built these rifles, unlike the half-fast work already noted on the inside of the side plate in question.

If it were easy, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun eh?
  
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madsenshooter
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #9 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 7:32pm
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Well, not a good guess on my part then.  On to another thing I've ran into.  If you have a 98 follower in there, it might hang up on the top of the magazine well.  Actually any follower might hang up depending on the bend someone might have put on the arbor, the post on the front end.
  
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Beachbumbob
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #10 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 9:01pm
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I haven't really looked at that yet, but I guess I will.  I've decided to wait until this weekend before I tear into the Magazine doors.  Want to be able to attack it first thing in the morning after coffee so I'll be ready for anything that might come from venturing into new territory.

Butlersranger and Dick were kind enough to post good instructions and advice on how to disassemble it.

Thanks,

Bob
  
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gunboat57
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #11 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 9:43pm
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Bob, I've been following this thread and decided to take a closer look at one of my '98 Krag sporters to see how it feeds.  I laid my rifle on its left side and opened the magazine door.  I inserted 4 cartridges and put just a bit of finger pressure on the last catridge while cycling the bolt.  They all picked up and fed smoothly.
My point is that by using gentle finger pressure if there was a hang-up I'd be able to see and feel where it's happening.  Will yours feed if only using finger pressure instead of closing the magazine door?  If not, you might be able to find the rub.  If they do feed, there could be follower issues here.
By the way, mine is able to feed 150gr SP Spitzers.
One more thing, from reading your earlier thread I couldn't tell if you ended up actually removing your cut-off lever and cleaning any gunk out of the hole.  Any burr or hardened grease in that area could be causing the cartridge to hesitate.
  

Tom P.
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madsenshooter
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #12 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 7:41am
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Since you're taking it apart Bob, I just played musical carrier/follower in a 96 action I have.  Only two out of 5 that I tried would work without binding on the top of the magazine.  These were both 92/96 carrier/followers and the arbor on them is approx 1.045" tall.  The other three are 98 followers, and their arbors are 1.007" tall.  Oddly, out of these three, one of them has a carrier that lacks the curl of a 98 carrier.  Maybe an early 98 carrier.  5MF has some photos that illustrate the differences in the carrier/follower assemblies.  I used to have it, but not no more and I'm not looking for it elsewhere.
  
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Beachbumbob
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #13 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 1:43pm
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Gunboat57:  I have not been able to get around to disassembling the cutoff.  That will be another project for the weekend when the weatherman 'assures' me we'll have nice and warm weather that will allow me to spend quality time out in the garage.  We had some this last weekend but the dog demanded we go downtown, drink coffee and watch the tourists from up north run around half dressed.  That will be done along with Magazine cover removal and clean up.

Madsenshooter:  Interesting that the longer of the followers bind and not the shorter of them.  Logic (not always applicable to all things mechanical) would tend to be the opposite of the results you had.

Thanks again for ALL the help and effort in helping me solve my problem.
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Bob's feed problem
Reply #14 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 2:50pm
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I apologize, but I've apparently lost track of something here. Perhaps I'm just confusing "disassembling" with "removal". Is there a cutoff in the rifle now? Is it the correct one? Is it fully operable, or somehow damaged?

My money is still on the bum side-plate, but the cutoff needs to be right, too. I'm further guessing the whole follower/spring thing will turn out to be a red herring. It'll be fun to find out, eventually.
  
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