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 10 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify (Read 11775 times)
tbergdall
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1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Feb 19th, 2014 at 8:25pm
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Hello, This Krag is a SN of 318996  considerably different form the galleries I have seen thus far. Odd holes in stock, No stampin g of ".22CAL" nor a hole in the reciever as other I have seen online. Plus an odd lobe on the back of the bolt. Any feedback on any of this? Refer to pics
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #1 - Feb 19th, 2014 at 9:29pm
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tbergdall:  Welcome to the KCA Forum.  I am not real familiar with .22 cal. Krags and gallery rifles.  However, I suspect the peculiar 'hole' in your stock's forearm and the extra piece of hardware on your bolt could be connected with a target scope mounting system.  (Just my hunch).
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #2 - Feb 19th, 2014 at 9:53pm
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That's got to be worthy of some further research - whatever it is - it wasn't Bubba.

Certainly not one of the classic 476XXX gallery rifles, but I would NOT rule out Butler's guess. Another possibility might be some sort of clearance cut for a sub-caliber mounting. I don't see that extra bolt piece as any part of a sight mounted to the rifle however - but perhaps a way to re-cock it remotely - via a wire? - if the breech were un-accessible? Just another thought.

Got to be more careful what I post!
« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2014 at 12:00am by Dick Hosmer »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #3 - Feb 19th, 2014 at 10:14pm
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That is a very peculiar 'grooving' on the cocking piece knob and very prominent where the knob is attached to the striker rod.  (photo of a regular cocking piece for comparison).
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #4 - Feb 20th, 2014 at 12:03am
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Could be an illusion, but I think the knob may be larger than normal, too. Sorry about the mistake on my post!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #5 - Feb 20th, 2014 at 12:48am
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tbergdall:  Your Krag .22 is an interesting enigma.  I have a few questions, if you please:  1. Is that 'lobe' attached to the bolt-body and does it rotate with the bolt?  Or, is it connected to the striker-rod and non-rotating?  2. When you look into those stock 'holes', is there any sign of something having been attached to the barrel?  3. Is your barrel a .30 cal. Krag barrel that was lined or was it made as a .22 barrel?  4.  Is it .22 rim-fire or a .22 center-fire chambering?
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #6 - Feb 20th, 2014 at 1:17am
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(I am trying to think outside the box on this one)!  I do remember in the Golden State Arms catalog, from back in the 1950s, some British rifles with interesting adaptations.  They were customized to accommodate shooters, who were wheel-chair bound or had physical or visual disabilities.  (Just pondering).
  
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reincarnated
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #7 - Feb 20th, 2014 at 7:57am
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My guess is that the bolt was modified to have a cocking-piece sight installed.

It is time to remove the barreled action from the stock.  It may be one of the Stevens-Pope barrels, which could be fitted to any action.  Look for a "Stevens-Pope" rolled stamp somewhere on the barrel and probably a serial number on the bottom, opposite the rear sight.

The barreled action could also be a sub-caliber adapter for a field artillery piece or for a naval gun.  Krags were modified for such purposes.  A .22 caliber adapter would be a pretty good training device for a National Guard artillery unit when bad weather kept the troops in the Armory.

My only idea about the odd holes in the stock is to ask if anyone has seen a Hollifield Dotter or similar device used for explaining sight settings to recruits.  The rifles were held at shoulder height in some sort of metal frame.
  
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tbergdall
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #8 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 2:44am
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Hello. thanks for the feedback and the welcome to KCA. This si my frist and only Krag att this time. I primarily look to collect .22 trainers of all walks.  Here are some answers to questions.
The barrel is a .22 barrel. Not a lined .30 barrel.

The "lobe" is connected to the striker rod and does not rotate. The hole in the lobe is a tapped thread.

When I look in the stock hole closest to the muzzle there are no marks on the barrel. In the hole closest to the receiver there is some marring. I can also see two numbers stamped in the barrel. These numbers are on bottom of barrel,  opposite of the rear sight Just as described for a Pope barrel. The wood shoulders around the holes are sharp with zero wear or compression marks as if from insertion wear.

The bolt is a CF. The bore is off center at the 12-o-clock position. The firing pin hits at the 6PM mark.
there is an interesting post on another forum I searched out. I copied one comment on it. Also listing a link if you want to look at it. (You need to Login to view media files and links)
One additional note. There are actually three variations on 22 cal Krags. Besides the arsenal produced Gallery Practice rifles (with the two variations-arsenal produced complete rifles and barreled receiver variations) there are the Stevens-Pope guns and a few Springfield produced (?) 22 cal rifles with characteristics similar to the S-P guns. These will not have the carrier style receivers, but barrels with the offset at 12 o'clock using the standard extractor to remove spent cases as does the S-P guns.

What is an S-P gun? My rifle does use the standard extractor to remove the shell casing.
I did check the SN on oldguns.net and it reflects production date of 1901 that matches the stock cartouche.

I will post pics tomorrow showing a couple of details. All feedback is gratefully welcomed. Thanks for your knowledge.
Tim
  
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madsenshooter
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #9 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 5:22am
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I think whoever the writer was just got tired of spelling out Stevens-Pope and went to S-P in the paragraph you've highlighted.
  
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #10 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 7:52am
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The Stevens-Pope barrels were made 1901-1904 by Stevens.  They were intended to turn any US military Krag into a trainer with a minimum of parts.  They were sold on the civilian market and were also purchased by at least 4 different National Guard organizations. 

As you describe, the barrels were bored off center, with the muzzle concentric but the chamber at the 12:00 position.  That was so that the military Krag bolt could be used with no modifications.  The firing pin strikes at 6:00 and the regular Krag extractor extracts the case most of the time, but not always.  If you shoot the rifle (you should), take along a good .22 caliber cleaning rod.  If a case fails to extract, use the rod to push it out.

Also, there is a tendency for fired cases to get stuck between the bolt and the side plate.  Many users removed the side plate to solve that problem.  Sometimes the side plates get lost.

I have been trying to learn about the Stevens-Pope Krag .22 rimfire barrels for years.  Yours brings the number traced to either 8 or 9.  I may have counted one twice.  In my book, that makes your barrel pretty darn rare.

I have no idea how many were made, but Springfield made more than 800 GPRs to replace them.  Note that the Model 1898 Gallery Practice Rifles have a different chamber & extractor system, a hole drilled in the left side of the receiver and are marked ".22 cal" on the left side.
  
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tbergdall
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #11 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 3:08pm
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Hello,
Sounds as if I have a Pope-barrel. I will confirm by removing the stock.
I have attached a couple of pics. One reflects the "lobe" being held out under spring tension but not cocking the bolt. It will cock the bolt if in just the right position.

"Reincarnated" Thanks for the neighborly treatment. The same goes for all persons who have given feedback. You may want to checkout the link I mentioned earlier. I think that would be another Pope barrel configuration confirmed. You can rest assured I will be shooting this rifle. What is a GPR?
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #12 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 3:31pm
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How is it that the lobe appears to be twistable through 90 degrees? How does pulling back the cocking piece/lobe/striker not cock the rifle - what is meant by the "right position"? Has the basic internal bolt mechanism been somehow altered? The usual cocking-piece sight was dovetailed to the knob. Why is the knob knurling different on this rifle?

This gets more interesting by the minute!   Smiley
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #13 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 3:58pm
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tbergdall:  I do not see any similarity between your Krag .22 and the "Sub-Caliber Rifles" that were training devices, made from Krag actions and .30 cal. barrels, that attached to Deck Guns and artillery pieces to allow cheap practice and training for Gun Crews.  Prior to 'becoming a .22', your rifle may have had alterations to allow its use with a "Sub-Target Rifle Machine".  This device allowed practice without ammo and mechanically marked a miniature target with a spring-loaded pointer.  The holes in your stock and the 'lobe' on the striker may have no relation to its use as a .22 rifle.
  
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Re: 1898 Krag .22 trainer /gallery help to identify
Reply #14 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 5:46pm
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In the picture of the Krag action set up for the Sub-Target Rifle Machine (STRM) posted by butlersrangers, there is what appears to be a lobe attached to the striker.  The lobe is on the port side of the rifle instead of the starboard as shown in the first set of photos.  There is a rod fastened (threaded?) to the lobe.

The entire striker with lobe in tbergdall's Krag may be a replacement, one which replaced the issue bolt when the rifle was to be used in the STRM, hence the difference in striker knob knurling.  The lobe could have been rotated from its original position during reassembly at any time in the last hundred years.  Perhaps that is why sometimes the rifle can be cocked by pulling on it and sometimes not.

There was more than one kind of training device that held a rifle at shoulder height.  All date from about the same time period, the late 1890s until just before WW1.  This striker assembly could be from another one. Selling gizmos to the Army would make you rich.
  
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