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 25 Krag beats the Enfield. (Read 15531 times)
waterdogg
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #15 - Mar 14th, 2014 at 7:41pm
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1 more thing Savage made a lot of Enfield's and they cut a slot in the bolt track to remove the bolt. I hare this design because after in is used a lot it starts to breaking and jambs the bolt. I like the British version better.
  
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Top Dean
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #16 - Mar 14th, 2014 at 11:09pm
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never had a P14 as of yet so can coment on that, but remember one thing the P14 is what SGT York won the Medal of Honor using when he shot and captured all of those Germans with.
  
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #17 - Mar 14th, 2014 at 11:27pm
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Yes, but to be fair... Sgt York could have done it with a flintlock.  He was THAT good of a marksman!
  
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old shooter
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #18 - Mar 14th, 2014 at 11:41pm
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I think it was said that the Springfield was a target rifle, the Mauser was a sporting rifle and the Enfield was a battle rifle.

The Krag shooter in the video did fine shooting overall but he should have kept the butt on his shoulder while he worked the bolt. He lost a little time and his accuracy suffered slightly.  A skilled .303 shooter could get off 25 aimed shots a minute, and that is with a cock-on-closing bolt.  The Krag shooter had a distinct advantage, as we all know.  I wish we could see a Krag match from a century ago.  As a seasoned bolt action deer hunter I know how fast accurate follow-up shots can score with the butt always on the shoulder.  Any old vets out there with bolt rifle experience?
  
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #19 - Mar 15th, 2014 at 12:13am
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some yes
  
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cdagnese
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #20 - Mar 15th, 2014 at 1:24am
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Some of the No. 5 carbines were finished with black paint (by the arsenal) as well as some of the Enfield .38 S&W revolvers.  Reason being that jungle conditions and humidity in a tank where the revolvers were used) would promote less rust if the finish was paint. 
The P13 (.256 Cal), P14 (.303 Cal) and P17 or "American Enfield" (.30'06 Cal) were all the same gun, British designed but built in the U.S.A.  Sgt. York used the P17.  My comparison was between the No. 1, k 3, No. 4 Mk1 and the Krag.  Just look at the metal finish of each and you can tell which would be the better made rifle  The Brits are fine military guns, but the Krag is a piece of Art.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #21 - Mar 15th, 2014 at 2:22am
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The Enfield Pattern 1913 was actually in .276 caliber.  The British were impressed with the performance of the 7mm Mausers used against them, during the Boer War in South Africa.  The Pattern '13 incorporated some Mauser design features and a reduced bore size (from .303).  The out-break of war in 1914 made a change of weaponry unrealistic.  A war time expedient was to have the new Enfield made in the U.S. in .303 caliber.  The Pattern 1914 Enfields were built by Winchester, Remington Arms and (Remington) Eddystone.  Feed problems and lack of parts interchangeability kept the British from issuing the American made Enfields in large numbers to front line troops.  The Pattern '14 did see use as a Sniping rifle and for reserve and training purposes during two World Wars.  (The Pattern '14 later was very popular with British Target Shooters).  The venerable S.M.L.E. proved its worth during WWI.  At Mons (Belgium), the German Army believed they were facing overwhelming British machinegun fire.  In reality, it was "Kitchner's Contemptibles" working the bolts of their S.M.L.E.s that brought the Schlieffen Plan to a halt.
  The U.S. was the true beneficiary of the Pattern '14 when it was revamped as the U.S. Model 1917 Enfield in .30-06.  This was another and brilliant war time expedient, necessary due to inadequate supplies of 1903 Springfields.
« Last Edit: Mar 15th, 2014 at 5:20am by butlersrangers »  
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #22 - Mar 15th, 2014 at 5:46am
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Lee-Enfields produced from 1888 to 1914 and in the 1920s were very nicely finished arms.  It is very difficult to find specimens that did not receive hard service or undergo modifications, re-building, and up-dates.  If you see a pristine example from those periods, the quality and workmanship is comparable to the U.S. Krag.  The Lee-Enfields are credited with having better metallurgy and are rated for slightly higher pressures than the Krag.  The British military did not reload and some chambers had generous tolerances for reliability under harsh conditions.
(This 1904 vintage, Sparkbrook made, S.M.L.E. Mark I, saw a lot of history but certainly was pretty when new).
« Last Edit: Mar 15th, 2014 at 1:19pm by butlersrangers »  
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ButterBolt
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #23 - Mar 15th, 2014 at 2:43pm
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This video and conversation reminds me of bandoleers of 10 round "strippers" and "charger" guides for M14 and M16.

I was never issued a bolt gun in the service, but shot them at Perry.  We were taught to how to work the bolt while the rifle stayed in the shoulder. Even with 80 seconds to shoot 10 rounds, it made a big difference, for me anyway.
  
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #24 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 12:05am
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Butterbolt, when you shot bolt rifles at Camp Perry did they say anything on the best way to grasp the bolt?  I note in the video cited above that the Krag shooter used a palm up grasp which is slower for a fast follow-up shot.  I learned that the bolt should be grasped with the thumb and fore finger which places the finger directly on the trigger as it pivots down around the grip of the stock.  Also there is no need to take time to place the thumb around the grip in fast shooting.  Any experience on this bolt use?  Anyone else?
  
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #25 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 12:17am
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It works on the Enfild as I have tried in after I saw it used on Top Shot, but not sure if it would work on the Krag, If you have aome Large Meat Hooks it might work, but I know it will not work for me as I am a Lefty with Rifles.
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #26 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 4:08am
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Go to YouTube and search for "stangskyting" - a Nordic rapid fire course. They hold the bolt, full-time, with thumb and index finger - trigger is pulled with the middle finger. FAST!!! At least one of the videos has a Krag, using chargers.
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #27 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 11:26am
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I've seen that video Dick.  That guy is Freaky fast... and very accurate also!  I imagine that with practice, we all could be shooting that way in competitions.
  
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ButterBolt
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #28 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 10:50pm
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old shooter, I was taught thumb & forefinger, but use what gets you time & accuracy. 

My problem was with a cock on opening rifle, I couldn't get reliable torque to open every time.  Especially the year they issued really hot 30.06 Greek ammo.  I broke an extractor off my M1, and could hardly operate my 03 bolt with the butt in shoulder.

I was taught to push the rifle to the right and push the bolt up & left simultaneously, getting the strength of two arms involved.

When I get my 1917 running, it will ne interesting to see how a cock on closing bolt will work for me.
  
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Re: Krag beats the Enfield.
Reply #29 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 5:10pm
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I have in the past pondered the working of Arisaka rifles.  I think the reason they have the somewhat odd shaped knob, and the reason we find them awkward to work is that the Japanese were taught to work them with their palms.

I am going to try the bolt handle grip some before Camp Perry.  It gives me a pull back into my shoulder that's hard to get while trying to grip the thin wrist of a 92/96.  I cut the end of my middle finger off many years ago in a paper cutter, it conforms to the curve of the Krag trigger pretty good.  I have about half dozen local matches I can try it in before Perry, matches where I'll only have 60 seconds to get 10 shots off.
  
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