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 10 Is it just me ... ? (Read 4646 times)
butlersrangers
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Is it just me ... ?
Jul 21st, 2016 at 6:54pm
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I was going through 10 pages of Krag stuff on GunBroker today. There were quite a few guns that, IMHO, appeared to be bogus combinations of parts or grossly misrepresented.

The spacing of this pictured serial number even looked suspicious to me. Is it just me?

(I would hate to be starting as a collector in this day and age. You always had to be careful, but, I don't remember it being so bad).
  
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psteinmayer
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #1 - Jul 21st, 2016 at 7:06pm
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Yeah... looks a little odd between the 31 and the 1016.  Also, it looks to me like someone stripped the finish off the metal.

I saw one on GB yesterday that had a very dark blued side plate... and some other stuff that made it look somewhat cobbled.
  
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Fred G.
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #2 - Jul 23rd, 2016 at 3:05am
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there isn't any reason for faking something like that. Just a variation of striking. It's real.
  
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98src
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #3 - Jul 23rd, 2016 at 4:50pm
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That second 1 might be a 4.
  
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Fred G.
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #4 - Jul 24th, 2016 at 12:36am
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I believe that you are Right.
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #5 - Jul 24th, 2016 at 2:11pm
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Looks like a 4 to me. Krag s/ns suffer from a lot of strike irregularities.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #6 - Jul 24th, 2016 at 7:07pm
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I don't know about the second "1" actually being a "4" theory, but, I got to looking at the serial numbers on some of my Krags. You Gentlemen are right about some Krag numbers being a bit irregular.

The second photo is of a model 1899 carbine receiver, that I own. The spacing and angle of some of the digits makes it look "hand-stamped", using individual number stamps.

(Maybe these were made in Afghanistan or the Khyber Pass - just kidding)!

  
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madsenshooter
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #7 - Jul 24th, 2016 at 10:44pm
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And it's likely sold as 311... for the last several sales.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #8 - Jul 25th, 2016 at 5:03pm
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I am struggling to understand the process Springfield Armory used to stamp model, armory, and serial numbers on Krag receivers.

The spacing and straightness seem a given with "model/year/Springfield Armory". However, the depth of stampings can vary quite oddly. (Model 1896 can easily appear to be Model 1898).

Serial numbers are weird. Some appear quite precise and 'machine-like'. Some appear irregular, like they are 'hand-stamped', one digit at a time. In some number-ranges, the size or 'font' appears to have changed. In some ranges, 3, 6, and 8, are easily confused and misread.

I am left wondering if the variances are caused by different workmen, varying skill levels, breakdowns in Dies or changes in equipment????

Lots of curiosities with Krags!

  
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Parashooter
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #9 - Jul 25th, 2016 at 7:25pm
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butlersrangers wrote on Jul 25th, 2016 at 5:03pm:
I am struggling to understand the process Springfield Armory used to stamp model, armory, and serial numbers on Krag receivers.

Well, here's how they were doing serials in 1917 - "hand stamp and hammer . . ."

(You need to Login to view media files and links)
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #10 - Jul 25th, 2016 at 8:33pm
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That is very neat 'Parashooter'. Thank you for sharing!

I wonder when this 'work holding fixture' came into use? (I wonder how things were done from 1894 to 1904)?

With this fixture, one operator, doing 120 serial numbers per hour, would average 30 seconds per action, in 1917.

The operator would have to 'clear' the fixture, lock an action into place, properly index the action, and work a handle to ratchet feed the work through the fixture as a six or seven digit serial number was hand-stamped on the receiver. (If I understand correctly).

I can see how the depth of numerals might vary, depending on force of the hammer strike.

If the digits were done one at a time, I am guessing there would be some 'screw ups' and mistakes.

Seeing drawings of actual tools and fixtures (and trying to comprehend the function) is quite interesting.
  
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FredC
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #11 - Jul 25th, 2016 at 9:16pm
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The spacing with that fixture would be pretty good. The one they used in the 1890s might not have been as good. Also the individual stamps might not have been perfectly centered. Not sure if they used a press or spring loaded hammer like todays automatic center punch to get consistent depth. I am sure the stamping was done before heat treatment (case hardening). If they spoiled one during heat treatment, I guess they could have reused the number to avoid skips?
As stamps wore the numbers would be come more blunt and change shape slightly. they could have chipped before anyone noticed then your 4 could look like a 1 till it got replaced.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #12 - Jul 25th, 2016 at 9:49pm
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From the 1916, "...Specifications Governing the Manufacture and Inspection of the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, Model of 1903...":

".... The receiver, of forged steel Class C, is drop-forged and annealed before machining. On the upper surface of the front end is stamped the serial number of the rifle and the place of manufacture. ...."
  
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reincarnated
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Re: Is it just me ... ?
Reply #13 - Jul 26th, 2016 at 12:58am
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I am amazed that the numbers are as even and uniform as we find them today.  Has anyone ever found duplicate numbers?  Human beings, being error prone even back then, did make mistakes.
  
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