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 25 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question (Read 26234 times)
butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #15 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 1:56am
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Here is a possible thought:

Maybe the OP's receiver was rejected, for being out of specifications or having a defect, before it received a serial number?

Surplus dealers like, Bannerman's and Stokes Kirk, bought up surplus parts, unfinished parts, and Springfield Armory 'junk', in government auctions.

These two companies built a lot of Krag 'parts guns' in the 1920s and 1930s that often perplex collectors.

There is an area of the OP's receiver that has not looked right to me from the start.

Maybe it is just an optical illusion exaggerated by the removed cut-off and missing wood, or maybe, it is a machining mistake that caused rejection?

I have circled the receiver area that looks odd and kind of gouged to me. I have also included a couple of pictures of that area from a model 1898 and a model 1899 action.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #16 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 2:49pm
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Marksc - Could you post a clear, up close, picture of your front-sight attachment and muzzle crown?

(This is always a valuable clue on carbine barrels).

Attached is a picture of two Stokes Kirk catalog pages. Some "carbines" have been made privately, outside Springfield Armory, (in the early 1900s and since), from surplus parts.

A carbine stock with no cartouche or 'circle P' stamp was likely put on outside of Springfield Armory.
  
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FredC
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #17 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 6:45pm
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Butlers Rangers, you might be onto something there. Another possibility is that it was not defective but some experiment was started on that particular receiver that did not work out.
The area circled looks like it was milled out on purpose, maybe a sight was planned? It would be interesting to see it with the stock removed. If the "milled" flat area has a mounting hole and the whole area is hard, then it was done before heat treat at the arsenal and it is not some bubba's craziness.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #18 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 7:44pm
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IIRC - The U.S. Krag receiver went through 120 machine operations. To speed up the process, receivers were held in fixtures in pairs, so that machining operations were performed on two receivers simultaneously.

That odd 'angled' cut on the OP"s receiver looks like it could have been a mistake caused by something getting out of whack during a shaping operation???

IMHO - If something was cosmetically or dimensionally wrong with a part, during the course of Krag production, it would have been noticed with all the inspections and gauging that went on. Likely, the part would have been 'tossed into a scrap bin'. A receiver was likely "Right" before giving it a serial number and facing the prospect of paying royalties.

Some experimental Krags, like Cole and Metford rifling tests and Parkhurst Device trials, were documented by serial number.

Serial numbers are a handy thing to have on prototype, test, and trial rifles for identification and comparison purposes.

(I'm not a Machinist, but, my father sure was! I'd like to see more details on that Krag. It's an interesting puzzle).
  
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Marksc
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #19 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:16pm
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The picture of receiver shows like there is milling lines. There is no machining on it. when I got it , it was laying on a wash cloth upside down half stuck to it. when I pulled it off it left those lines from rag. not wanting to do anything I just rub it down with Hoppes oil.
  
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Marksc
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #20 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:20pm
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New Picture of receiver showing non touched finish
  
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Marksc
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #21 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:36pm
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Have someone coming over tonight. He is bringing over a 1898 receiver in excellent condition and compare all measurements with a micrometer and engineers straight edge tools. I am still hold true that it is a receiver that has never been touched and never had serial numbers stamped into it. There is absolutely no flat spots on it.
  
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FredC
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #22 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:39pm
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Wish I had a receiver in hand to compare with but something is really different there. My first impression is it is not an accident, could be wrong here. Another photo with some light in those dark areas would be helpful. I am thinking I see half of a counter bore that should not be there.
Multiple cutters were mounted on the milling machines that did that work. To mill that step would have taken a lulu of a mistake if not done on purpose.
Assuming this receiver got the proper heat treatment, it should be safe to fire if everything else is normal. The sharp flat bottomed cut will weaken things but it is in a NON critical part of the receiver.
Hope a better photo will help figure out the puzzle.
Figured out what that half counter bore is, that is the pocket the trigger assembly fits in. The darkness in that area makes it hard to figure out.
  
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Marksc
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #23 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:46pm
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Butlers Rangers,
He is a pic of the area you circled. You can see I have not touched any cleaning yet.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #24 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:55pm
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Thanks for the latest photo 'Marksc'.

It looks to me like Springfield Armory workers missed some machine operations on your receiver, before it was heat-treated and Proofed. This could not be corrected after heat-treat.

I've never seen an unfinished receiver before. Cool!

That probably explains the absence of a serial number. It was probably 'scrapped', but, someone later made a "carbine" out of parts.

Attached - Contrasting photos of Mark's receiver and a model 1899 receiver, showing considerable difference in 'trigger pivot' area. The receivers should look identical.
  
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FredC
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #25 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:58pm
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Almost like we are looking at 2 different receivers. The last photo looks like they forgot an operation. Going back and looking at BR's photo the milling operation around the trigger recess was forgotten. That may make what appears to be a step. I am not familiar with all the changes to the receivers between 1892 and 1898. But that "lost operation" would have made fitting a rifle stock a custom operation. Maybe the arsenal did not want to mess with it but a surplus seller might do the work to salvage a receiver.
  
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Marksc
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #26 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:12pm
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Now see the difference you are talking about. Another Picture trying to get the angle you used on comparison.
  
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Marksc
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #27 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:20pm
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Looking at stock it is very clear that part of receiver leaves a very thin wall of wood (approx. 1/8") that possible could be the reason for changes. Does your original stock look like this?
  
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #28 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:20pm
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Don't know if I should broach this subject or not... but Mark stated that it was definitely a carbine.

Now here are the thought running around in my head:
The receiver is marked 1898.  True 1898 carbines are rare, and command a mighty high dollar figure.  There are many fakes running around, and the serial number is the only true way to discern a REAL 1898 carbine from a fake or simulated one.  Being that this has no serial number makes me suspicious that it is not a true 1898 carbine.  I'm leaning more towards a botch or unfinished receiver that was built into a Bannerman or Stokes Kirk "Parts" gun.  Now it may or may not have a true carbine barrel (let's face it, anyone could buy a carbine barrel and install on a rifle receiver)... but that does not make it a true carbine.

It is... however, one heck of a mystery!!!  Either way, Krags are meant to be enjoyed!  Yours just has a little additional story to tell!

Just out of curiosity, have you ever fired it? 

FWIW, a serial number-less Krag showed up here before, and it turned out that the number WAS machined off.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: 1898 Krag Missing Serial # Question
Reply #29 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:28pm
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Springfield missed a spot!

The area outlined in red should have been removed by machining prior to heat-treat.

I wonder how often such mistakes happened?
  
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