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Gems are out there! (Read 6528 times)

butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Gems are out there! Jan 31^st, 2018 at 9:01pm	Print Post
	An interesting thread is developing on the Gunboards Forum. On the "Military Mauser Forum", a Poster started a thread - "1891 argentine in 30-40 Krag!". The Poster had seen an early Mauser in a gun shop that he took to be an 1891 Argentine Mauser. It was marked 30-40 on the barrel. The rifle had few if any markings, no crest, and no graduations on the rear sight. He asked about it on the Mauser forum. He went back to the gun shop to take some pictures and get more information. The shop owner asked him what he was doing? The poster asked if the rifle was for sale and got it for $300. The two pictures, he posted so far, are intriguing! It appears he may have obtained a rifle that was submitted for the 1892 U.S. Trials (Mauser entry #4 in an experimental .30 cal. rimmed cartridge). (The 30-40 marking may have been added later). Hopefully, more pictures will be posted. Definitely worth looking at! p.s. It appears like trial rifle No. 27, (Mauser entry #4), illustrated in Brophy, The Krag Rifle, page 245.


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #1 - Feb 1^st, 2018 at 1:40am	Print Post
	Photos of possible 1892 Trials prototype Mauser from Gunboard's Forum:


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reincarnated KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 562 Joined: Mar 11^th, 2012	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #2 - Feb 1^st, 2018 at 3:25am	Print Post
	Those sorts of things come up now & again. If a guy was not a dyed-in-the-wool enthusiast for historical arms, he or she would never know what it was. Good on him! What happened to the rifles rejected from those or any other trials?


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #3 - Feb 1^st, 2018 at 10:22pm	Print Post
	This U.S. Patent Drawing appears to be similar to the Trials Rifle #27, Mauser No. 4, supplied chambered for the F.A. experimental .30 cal. rimmed cartridge.


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #4 - Feb 11^th, 2018 at 6:35pm	Print Post
	The proud owner posted some nice pictures today. The discussion is quite fascinating! (p.s. - The caliber marking appears it was added later, possibly by a gunsmith).
	« Last Edit: Feb 11^th, 2018 at 9:21pm by butlersrangers »

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waterman KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 166 Joined: Oct 7^th, 2011	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #5 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 2:05am	Print Post
	Whatever the designation of the original cartridge (developed with the last of the Trapdoor actions?) it was not ".30-40 Krag". The owner has a very rare rifle, but how great is the interest? What is the value? If you found one at a gunshow, how much would you offer?


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #6 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 2:16am	Print Post
	IIRC - Frankford Arsenal developed a rimmed, smokeless, .30 caliber cartridge that was used in some of the arms entered in the 1892 and 1893 trials. This evolved into the .30 U.S. Army cartridge. The possible trial Mauser rifle may be chambered for the .30 F.A. rimmed cartridge. The '.30-40 KRAG' marking is likely a much later hand-stamped addition. I believe some late trap-door rifles were used to test .30 caliber rimless experimental cartridges that became the .30-03 cartridge.


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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #7 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 4:34am	Print Post
	I saw a 30-40 Trapdoor once, I think it was in a TX museum. Interesting rear sight the mauser has, with that double notch when down, looks like there might be some limited windage adjustment. The 30-40 on the mauser barrel appears to me to have been stamped on later, maybe by the fellow who liberated it from the Armory? I've seen a few rifles over the years that might have walked out of Springfield's collection.


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #8 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 5:42am	Print Post
	The rear "v" notch can be folded down. This feature was on model 1871 and model 71/84 Mausers. When 'up' it is likely a 'battle sight'.


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Dick Hosmer KCA Official Member Offline Collector of Springfield Arms, 1865-1915 Posts: 1862 Location: Northern California Joined: Nov 20^th, 2005 Gender:	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #9 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 7:13am	Print Post
	butlersrangers wrote on Feb 12^th, 2018 at 2:16am: IIRC - Frankford Arsenal developed a rimmed, smokeless, .30 caliber cartridge that was used in some of the arms entered in the 1892 and 1893 trials. This evolved into the .30 U.S. Army cartridge. The possible trial Mauser rifle may be chambered for the .30 F.A. rimmed cartridge. The '.30-40 KRAG' marking is likely a much later hand-stamped addition. I believe some late trap-door rifles were used to test .30 caliber rimless experimental cartridges that became the .30-03 cartridge. No, the .30 caliber TDs took a RIMMED round basically indistinguishible from what is now the .30-40 Krag. The rimless .30s were used in other trial arms of the period, such as (IIRC) the Durst. FWIW, our friend Joe Farmer has two (now perhaps 3?) of the Durst rifles, which are of two similar designs. The .30 TDs are well covered in my latest book.


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #10 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 7:38am	Print Post
	Dick, thanks for correcting my memory error. Good to hear from you, I was getting concerned about your recent 'absence' from forums.


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waterman KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 166 Joined: Oct 7^th, 2011	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #11 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 8:32am	Print Post
	In "History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition", Vol. 1, 1880-1939, Revised, Hackley, Woodin & Scranton call the cartridge the "Cal .30 Springfield Armory Cartridge". There were many changes made during the early years. They also discuss the rimless versions, generically termed "the Cal. .30 rimless Frankford Arsenal cartridge". The writers assume that one version of the rimless case was the 7.65 x 54 mm Belgian Mauser, loaded with a 215 grain bullet. The book has 5 pages detailing cartridge development 1890-1893.


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #12 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 4:22pm	Print Post
	It has been suggested to the owner of this possible 'trial rifle', that a chamber cast be done. (It is pretty much the consensus of responses on this thread that the '.30-40 KRAG' marking was a later addition). Some of the bolt 'internals' on this rifle have Belgian/FN ('Z') markings. (I suppose this could be a replacement 'striker-safety assembly' from a Belgian model 1889 Mauser). I think this rifle is an amazing curiosity and it has come to be in good hands. The Mauser Rifle Forum on Gunboards has some interesting posts and contributors. There are several threads that have Springfield Armory 'Mauser trial rifles' content.


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Dick Hosmer KCA Official Member Offline Collector of Springfield Arms, 1865-1915 Posts: 1862 Location: Northern California Joined: Nov 20^th, 2005 Gender:	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #13 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 5:08pm	Print Post
	butlersrangers wrote on Feb 12^th, 2018 at 7:38am: Dick, thanks for correcting my memory error. Good to hear from you, I was getting concerned about your recent 'absence' from forums. I appreciate your concern! Am fine, just busy, and there has simply not been a great number of subjects of interest (to me) on any of the various boards recently. Also, you do a great job here, as I've said in the past. My guns are locked away, and I'm not a cellphone camera user, so, I really appreciate your instant responses.


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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: Gems are out there! Reply #14 - Feb 12^th, 2018 at 5:15pm	Print Post
	I'm glad you are "OK". I will get busy and be quiet so we hear more from You! CELLPHONES are Cameras??? Tell me more!


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