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 25 New member with a Krag project. (Read 13572 times)
FredC
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #30 - Mar 19th, 2018 at 9:06pm
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Others might just start lapping, but I may be over cautious. Especially if I could feel a high spot with a probe I would want to examine it for internal cracks, also look to see if deformation happened because of an overload. I might still use the receiver even if there were evidence of that. The material in a Krag receiver is very soft and not prone to cracking with a relatively hard thin surface. What I found would affect how I would solve the problem.
If the raised portion in the receiver is just a couple of .0001s of an inch, lapping would be my answer. One problem with valve lapping compound and 2 hard surfaces is that it just rolls between the surfaces. if you just start lapping trying to take a couple of thousanths of an inch off the leading edge of the bolt and receiver will get the most wear and the lock up will not be the best when finished and it would take forever, with cleanup out of the recesses being difficult. Any compound left in there will just cause undo wear and problems.
If I remember right the barrel looked like it may have had problems, taking it off would give a better looksy. If MilSurpshooter finds a high spot that can be felt I can tell him what I would try for working it down.
  
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milsurpshooter
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #31 - Mar 20th, 2018 at 2:36am
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Thanks for all for the input.  After recleaning the chamber area, I just could not see or feel any burrs/raised spots that would affect headspace.  So, I started to think "out of the box" and decided to take the action out of the stock (maybe the bolt is touching the wood).  I also looked for clearance on other surfaces of the receiver that might come in contact with the bolt.  I just wasn't seeing anything.  But then, something did get my attention.  Please see pic #3 and note the clearance between the receiver and bolt.  The gap looks tapered.  Is the receiver bent or torqued?
Thanks again,
- milsurpshooter
  
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milsurpshooter
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #32 - Mar 20th, 2018 at 2:43am
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Do the barrel markings/stamps look like those found on an original Krag barrel?  Or is this somrthing else?  Might explain the headspace issue.
Thnx,
- milsurpshooter
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #33 - Mar 20th, 2018 at 2:47am
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Your barrel and receiver markings are good, correct, and typical original markings.

It would be nice if you could try another 'known to be good' bolt in your receiver.

P.S. - Your photography has improved!
  
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milsurpshooter
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #34 - Mar 20th, 2018 at 1:08pm
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In my post #23 of this thread, I included a pic of my GO gauge and it's dimension of 0.0655".  The SAAMI specs that I just read about show a GO dimension of 0.064".  I'm beginning to think that the extra 0.0015" of my GO gauge may be the issue.  Can someone recommend a SAAMI spec GO gauge that I could try?
- milsurpshooter
  
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FredC
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #35 - Mar 20th, 2018 at 2:31pm
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A proper go gauge should have an extension on it for centering the rim dimension in the barrel and on the bolt face. There are places that rent reamers and probably the gauges as well.
Did you have an issue closing on new unfired cases? If not almost closing on the .0655 gauge would indicate you should have no issue with Graf's cases.
BR suggested trying a "known" good bolt in your rifle, also trying your bolt with a new unfired case in a "known" good rifle would tell you something. Leave your bolt stripped so you do not get them mixed up. I have 2 Krags and had both bolts on the table at the same time. Took a lot of examination to put them straight and I am not 100% sure that I really did.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #36 - Mar 20th, 2018 at 4:38pm
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Closing on a chambered case is the issue (new, loaded, or fired).

I would load some ammo, making sure the primers are properly seated, and go test things at the range. If there is a bit of brass rub, no big deal, until its time for Rapid Fire.

I imagine with a little use lug fit will improve. Inspect fired cases for abnormalities.
  
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Parashooter
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #37 - Mar 20th, 2018 at 9:46pm
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milsurpshooter wrote on Mar 20th, 2018 at 1:08pm:
I'm beginning to think that the extra 0.0015" of my GO gauge may be the issue.  Can someone recommend a SAAMI spec GO gauge that I could try?
- milsurpshooter

Forster will sell you one for $36. See (You need to Login to view media files and links); Image file shows Forster specs.

You could just stone off .0015" from your .0655" gauge. Rub it in an orbital pattern on a fresh sheet of oiled 400-grit wet/dry paper laid on a hard, flat surface. Shouldn't take long to remove .0015".

Being cheap, I'd find a case with a .060" rim and add a shim cut from an aluminum beverage can (typically about .004"). If that combination goes, you should be OK with any cases that are within spec.

None of this is necessary unless you're having bolt-closing problems with the cases you use - almost all of which likely have rims under .062" thick.

FWIW, back when Krags were dirt cheap and gunsmiths knew them well, it was common practice to lap in the front lug far enough to let the guide rib contact the receiver (Norsk style, about .008") when fitting a custom barrel in some wildcat chambering. Lapping yours a couple of thousandths shouldn't be a problem.
  
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FredC
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #38 - Mar 21st, 2018 at 10:54pm
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Went back to reply #18 Quote " I was unable to fully close the bolt using only the lightest pressure.  However, I was able to close the bolt using a little more force when using a 30-40 new unfired brass casing."
If this is correct that you could close the bolt with very slight effort on the oversize 303 gauge your head space is correct. Something else is causing the case to be tight.
Here are some things I can think of, maybe others can come up with other reasons:
#1 Debris in the chamber that has resisted cleaning
#2 debris in the extractor slot stopping the bolt from going fully forward when a rim is in place. looks unlikely as the later photo shows very clean, check near the barrel threads just in case.
#3 chamber is not reamed deep enough on the shoulder    I would think this is unlikely on an worn original barrel. It could possibly be a combination of putting a tight new bolt with a shallow chamber.

If I read that #18 correctly and you can close on the oversize gauge we have been barking up the wrong tree, please clarify if I read it wrong.
  
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FredC
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #39 - Mar 22nd, 2018 at 10:27pm
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Went back and looked at Parashooter's chart. Then checked my SAAMI drawings. Parashooter's .064 is indeed correct for 303 British.
Calipers can be off that far off (.0655), hopefully your 303 gauge is correct. If you have a friend with a regular micrometer you may want to check the gauge. If your gauge does mike at .064 or a couple tenths on the high side you still should be good if it closes with minimal effort, talking about minor effort with your pinky. If your gauge is really .0655 then there is no question the headspace is correct.
Let us know what you come up with.
  
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milsurpshooter
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #40 - Mar 22nd, 2018 at 11:59pm
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First, thanks for all of the input regarding my Krag project.  It's been a learning experience and a hobby that's thoroughly enjoyed.  The following will hopefully summarize the "progress" made thus far.
1.  Purchased a project Krag with a welded bolt (bolt #1).  Firearm appeared functional except for bolt and missing fromt sight.
2.  Purchased complete bolt #2 for parts.  Bolt lug had a groove at rear base and I decided to forgo using it due to safety concerns.
3.  Purchased NOS bolt body (bolt #3) and thoroughly cleaned.
4.  Breech area cleaned extensively and no known burrs noted.
5.  Already own .303 button-style headspace gauge set.  GO gauge measures .0655" when SAAMI specs state .064".
6.  Stripped NOS bolt (bolt #3) will not close on GO gauge the majority of the time unless I am carefull about the gauge's orientation.  Bolt will only close if GO gauge cut is properly oriented for extractor cut in breech.  Assembled bolt will close on GO gauge if gauge is properly oriented for extractor.  All other times, the bolt comes within just a few degrees of closing.
7.  Using a properly sized brass casing, NOS bolt (bolt #3) will always close if using more than light finger pressure.  No scratches or rub marks are noted on casing after extraction.
8.  I have decided to order a Forster GO gauge which should be of better quality / better tolerance.
9.  Chamber cast will be completed to confirm proper caliber / chamber dimensions.
Hope this summary will help in the diagnosis.  Thanks again for the assistance.
- milsurpshooter

  
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FredC
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #41 - Mar 23rd, 2018 at 3:02pm
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A couple of comments on your #s 5 and 6

"5.  Already own .303 button-style headspace gauge set.  GO gauge measures .0655" when SAAMI specs state .064"."
Have you checked this .0655 thickness with a mike? In a shop environment we only use the best electronic calipers if we have plus or minus .005 inches. Calipers are good for rough fast measurements, not precision.
"6.  Stripped NOS bolt (bolt #3) will not close on GO gauge the majority of the time unless I am carefull about the gauge's orientation.  Bolt will only close if GO gauge cut is properly oriented for extractor cut in breech.  Assembled bolt will close on GO gauge if gauge is properly oriented for extractor.  All other times, the bolt comes within just a few degrees of closing." Makes me think you have some slightly raised metal in the vicinity of the extractor cut in the barrel.  Have you checked the brass for this? Maybe marking this area of the brass will show it?
  If your gauge is really .0655, it is telling you something if the gauge must be perfectly aligned to close. I got a mammoth raised spot adjacent to the extractor groove on a barrel by forgetting to pull the bolt out before unscrewing the barrel, there maybe other abuses that could do that.
One other thing your new Forster gage will do is measure on the center of the barrel face. Krags seem to wear on the barrel face probably from dirty ammo. A flat gauge that is not centered will measure against the unworn barrel face unless perfectly centered.
On the attached photo you can see 2 distinct wear rings on the chamber end of the barrel. The outer is from the bolt face, the inner is from the case rims. I did file off the raised metal from the extractor accident, but you can see where you Forster gauge will measure.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #42 - Mar 23rd, 2018 at 3:33pm
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IMHO - If your NOS bolt will close on .30-40 cartridge cases, without undue effort, and your chamber shows no aberrations, you should be good to go.

It appears you are blessed with minimum 'head-space'.
  
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FredC
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Re: New member with a Krag project.
Reply #43 - Mar 23rd, 2018 at 4:25pm
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BR, I was puzzled by the #7 comment on closing with light finger pressure, is it just friction from turning the bolt and finishing the cocking? Or is it something more? At any rate if the go gauge does close with slight or no effort (when centered) indicates the head space is OK.
The reason I had to get the new reamer was the first was made wrong and the chamber was tight just in front of the rim. The cases fed a little tight but extracted very hard. Also resized cases would not chamber. This would be highly unlikely on a used original barrel.
If there is some defect on MilSurpShooter's barrel extractor cut that causes extra effort to close it would be just a nuisance and not a safety issue. If he has some cases that will not chamber and some that do, then the issue needs to be cleared up so have will not have to be sorting brass.
  
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