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Fireforming loads (Read 9293 times)

madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Fireforming loads Feb 28^th, 2018 at 5:43pm	Print Post
	Here's couple loads that I used to blowout the taper of some .303 British blanks that I turned into full length 30-40. I've previously worked up to the amount of Blue Dot I use in these loads. I seated the bullets, Hornady 150gr FMJBTs, to the crimp groove and used the Lee factory crimp die, most of the cases were right at max length, and I used a CCI#34 primer. These were shot out of my parkerized Krag. It has the tightest chamber and bore of all my rifles. I swapped it over into the stock that has the free floated barrel channel too. The 860 is burning good, no black smoke cloud, no muzzle flash, no unburned grains of powder, but pressure is still Krag safe. I've no idea how fast the 49-50gr of powder gets the 150gr bullet going, wish I had a chronograph. The load does a nice job of blowing out the more tapered .303 case. I saved enough of them to shoot a match, I'll have to scope the parked Krag again! Oh, the two in the white were the first couple shots, I had to walk it down to the X.


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waterman KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 166 Joined: Oct 7^th, 2011	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #1 - Mar 12^th, 2018 at 5:27pm	Print Post
	No one has said anything after 68 reads, but I feel compelled to say that I think you are risking eyes, fingers and a Krag. Military blanks are often made from cartridge cases that failed some sort of acceptance test as a component of service ammo. The list of accidents (?) small and some large with duplex loads of smokeless powder is quite long. FWIW, cartridges for launching rifle grenades often use 5 grains of FFFg black powder as an igniting charge.


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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #2 - Mar 12^th, 2018 at 7:06pm	Print Post
	I checked with PRVI before using the cases, I know that here in the US we used sub par cases to make blanks. These were newly made, and I did a lot of measuring, weighing and comparing, without sectioning any though. The only difference in these cases was the amount of polish and the neck/shoulder area needed annealed. As far as the charges go, I worked up with the booster. A lot of fellows on castboollits use the boosted powder for cast loads, and others there have experimented with jacketed. The boost makes up for the difference in primer fire, 50BMG primer vs LRM primer. The 50BMG looks to be about 4x larger. One could think of the little charge being similar to the charge behind a 200gr bullet in the 44 special, since the case is the same diameter and the weight of the 860 plus 150gr bullet above is close to 200gr. So the near 200gr powder/bullet column gets a little push down the barrel before the 860 really starts to burn. Burn rate of the whole, judging by the POI change between loads using other slow burning powders is between H4831SC and RL19. When I had access to a chronograph the SD of loads I was testing at that time was very low, very consistent, and they were usually pretty accurate loads. I'll let you all know if I hurt any of my rifles, like I did when I managed to ring the chamber neck on one!


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BCB KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 9 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2017	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #3 - Mar 15^th, 2018 at 4:26pm	Print Post
	I use WC-860 and WC-872 with my Krag and NOE 311-202-RN (~210 grains)… I am shooting them from an MGM custom 26” barrel on the Encore frame… Not quite the stuff you guys shoot, but still a 30-40 Krag!!! Anyhow, 49 grains of 860 with the NOE boolit are giving me ~1979 fps (chronographed)… And 49 grains of 872 with the NOE boolit are giving me ~1974 fps in a Graf case and only 1854 fps in a Remington case. (chronographed)… Not sure what velocity you might get from a 150 grainer. It’s likely it could be a bit less than the 210 I am shooting as the 150 might not give enough pressure to allow the super slow burners to really get going. I guess only a chronograph could tell that tale… Good-luck…BCB


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Kerz KCA Official Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 307 Location: KY Joined: Jan 13^th, 2017 Gender:	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #4 - Mar 16^th, 2018 at 11:14am	Print Post
	Some recent chrono data. FYI

	Preparedness + Opportunity= Luck NRA Benefactor Member KY & WV State Rifle & Pistol Association Life Member
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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #5 - Mar 16^th, 2018 at 2:49pm	Print Post
	I think the boost gets it up to pressure with the 150, speed ought to be about the same as a caseful of 4350, 2600-2700fps. Someday, I'll get a chronograph. The boost seems to get the 860 powder burning about the same speed as the old H450. I started at 3.5gr with the booster and I've worked up in approx .2gr increments. I'll have to prove my guesses at some point.


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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #6 - Mar 20^th, 2018 at 2:11am	Print Post
	The VA finally came through and I now have a pair of glasses that takes away that up and down vertical double I was seeing at 100yds! So I swung by the range during my travels today and shot a group of ten more of the fireforming loads. I didn't shoot a whole lot better however. First shot was the highest 9. No Krags were harmed by the actions taken to produce this motionless picture.


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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #7 - Mar 23^rd, 2018 at 4:34pm	Print Post
	Before fireforming, the .303 cases held approx 49.2gr of powder. After fireforming they'll hold 53.8gr of powder. Both are filled to yield a mild amount of compression when seating the 150gr bullet to the crimp groove. The shoulder of the .303 cases are about .402" in diameter before firing, .421" after. Certainly not a match load accuracy-wise, but I'm sure the fireformed cases will make me some good loads. That 4.6gr difference is about the same as that I noted in a 7.5x55 sized in a Lee die, and one sized in a K31 specific die. There would be few, if any, K31 loads that would need that little bit of extra capacity. NOTE: I'VE NOT WORKED UP LOADS WITH THE HIGHER CAPACITY CASES YET, THOUGH I HAVE PREVIOUSLY WORKED UP LOADS IN REGULAR 30-40 CASES.


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Parashooter KCA Forum Member Offline Kragmudgeon Posts: 514 Location: Connecticut Joined: Feb 4^th, 2010	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #8 - Mar 23^rd, 2018 at 8:32pm	Print Post
	madsenshooter wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2018 at 4:34pm: NOTE: I'VE NOT WORKED UP LOADS WITH THE HIGHER CAPACITY CASES YET, THOUGH I HAVE PREVIOUSLY WORKED UP LOADS IN REGULAR 30-40 CASES. Not to worry. The undersize cases expand to fit the chamber well before peak pressure is reached - meaning at peak they are already "fireformed" and have greater volume as noted. Given the same chamber and charge, any interior-ballistic difference between cases before and after "fireforming" is generally insignificant.


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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #9 - Mar 24^th, 2018 at 1:39am	Print Post
	That makes sense, but if I load anymore of these 150's I don't intend to use the same charge. I got them all shot today, best 10 shot group was 2.8"x3.1". Nice round group, no stringing or odd fliers. Nobody else showed up at the single bench range today, so I got to take my time. I also shot some 168gr Nosler BTHPs over 40.7gr of IMR4007 and they grouped about the same overall. Might be about all the rifle has in it with these shorter shanked bullets, which is the same conclusion I came to last year before deciding to shoot it at Camp Perry. This is the one with the free floated barrel, I'll be playing with the unfloated one next, going back to the .3105 174gr bullets.


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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #10 - Apr 27^th, 2018 at 7:54pm	Print Post
	Another day, new cases to expand! I bought some of the BCC cases which allow me to finish sizing to the shoulder using the rifle. Back to the Boosted WC860 loads. I got a group that would hold the black using 5.2gr of 10B101, 47gr of WC860, (total of 52.2gr) BCC cases, #34 primer. Pressure was mild. Out of curiosity I fired five loaded with 47gr of 760, which should yield approx 2500-2600fps. Some references will show that over max, others say I can still go a ways up. The 760 load showed higher pressure on the cases (still not max), a touch more recoil or more sharpness to the perceived recoil, but they appeared to be going slower than the boosted 860 load as they impacted lower on the target with the same sight setting. I want to note, I'm using my 92/96 that has the uncut guide rib which was fitted to bear on the receiver. So I really have two locking lugs, like the Norwegians intended! I'm thinking some of the slow burning lot of WC852 would work pretty good for this task.
	« Last Edit: Apr 29^th, 2018 at 5:18pm by madsenshooter »

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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #11 - May 5^th, 2018 at 2:23pm	Print Post
	Pressure with the above load was very mild, the casenecks didn't seal. So I bumped up the kicker to 5.5gr, maintaining the same total of 52.2gr. The 5.5/46.7gr did produce enough pressure to seal the neck. I got to compare this load with a couple others you won't find in modern books. 52.2gr of both H4831SC and RL19. As with the WW760 load above, both loads impacted significantly lower than the boosted 860 loads, but were about the same by weight and by volume. It was also obvious by case and primer condition that both produced more pressure than the boosted 860. Still no excessively flattened primers, no hard bolt uplift or extraction, no measurable solid casehead expansion. I'm not interested in compressing either powder more than what I have. I noticed some stringing with all three loads, down and to the right. I found that my lower band had worked loose. This is the rifle with the free floated barrel, so the band coming loose has a significant effect. The stock has been sanded, I ran out of thread on the screw before the band was all the way tight, so I had to put a couple wraps of fine wire behind the the screwhead in order to get the band tight to the wood. I'm loading the remaining brass with .2gr more booster and calling it as good as it gets. So the next load I report on will be 5.7gr 10B101, 46.5gr of WC860. It appears that this load is producing significantly higher velocities than the single based powders I have compared it to, yet less overall pressure. At $69/8lbs vs the cost of 8lbs of commercial powder, I'm working with it!


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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #12 - May 7^th, 2018 at 8:46pm	Print Post
	OK, I'm satisfied with this load. I don't see any good reason to find the max. New BCC cases sized to the rifle, 5.7gr 10B101 (high nitro flake powder made by Vihtavuori, used in 50BMG plastic training ammo, burns about Blue Dot speed) 46.5gr of WC860, CCI#34 primer. Primer edges rounded, no difficult bolt uplift or sticky extraction. The necks on all sealed. I need to get a scope on this rifle and shoot it against the AR boys at an upcoming Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association match! Next project will be doing something similar with the .310" 174gr FMJBTs and the larger bored 92/96. I've been packing these 150gr Hornady FMJBT bullets since the late 80s, about time they found their way into a backstop! Here's a shot of the muzzle after a bit over 20rds. I've no idea how fast the bullet is going, don't care. Once I found the new zero, clay pigeons at 100yd were pretty easy. Thanks VA, I'm getting used to these glasses!
	« Last Edit: May 8^th, 2018 at 1:32am by madsenshooter »

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butlersrangers KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 6330 Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud Joined: Oct 7^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #13 - May 7^th, 2018 at 9:48pm	Print Post
	Give 'em hell, Madsenshooter! Nice target. Looks like a pretty solid Shooting Bench!


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madsenshooter KCA Forum Member Offline Krag Enthusiast! Posts: 1079 Joined: Sep 10^th, 2009	Re: Fireforming loads Reply #14 - May 8^th, 2018 at 1:41am	Print Post
	Yep, a rock solid rest! Or do you mean the nice new bench ODNR built for me that's in the background? Someone got tired of the old shaky one and tore it out of the ground. You just gotta love the poor boy equipment, those are corn bags from northern Indiana, I used to be a member at a 1000yd range up that way, Young's Longshot. Found the place by accident when I was out cruising on my scooter one day. I knew what the wind flags out in the middle of all that corn were!


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