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 25 Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen (Read 4961 times)
madsenshooter
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #30 - May 16th, 2018 at 9:20pm
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I'm with BR.  Your stock likely got changed during some rebuild.  22018 has an 1895 cartouche.  Can't say it didn't get swapped someone along the line.  The high hump sights are the same sights that were shipped later for the 1896 Cadet rifles that were already delivered sans sights.
  
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Knute1
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #31 - May 16th, 2018 at 10:14pm
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Geez, I guess there are too many variables. But I just couldn't explain the 1896 cartouche. Now if it is because of a stock replacement, well then that changes the pedigree. So during the 1896 updates the original stock was replaced and didn't stay with the gun? A different already altered stock was grabbed (from another 1892 rifle)? Then the stock original to this rifle, if it was still in good condition, was altered and put on a different rifle? Splitting hairs here, but researching details, on things that interest me, sometimes I go farther than most would.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #32 - May 16th, 2018 at 11:18pm
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As I understand things, during re-building and major updating of Krags, at Springfield Armory, the Rifles and Carbines were taken apart.

The parts were inspected and serviceable parts underwent specified treatment and refinish.

The 'recycled' metal and wood components went into Bins. The 'rebuilt' rifles were assembled with randomly selected parts.

The rebuilt arms were function tested and fired. When "passed", a 'circle P' was applied to the stock wrist in the area behind the trigger-guard.
  
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Knute1
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #33 - May 17th, 2018 at 1:42am
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Ohhtay!!! So my stock may not be original to the rifle, but it was still likely installed by the armory. Plus, I got a high hump rear sight. I'm good with that. Smiley
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #34 - May 17th, 2018 at 2:51pm
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This is NOT intended as ANY sort of put-down, or any desire to stop the discussion. We find many 'odd' assemblies today. Some are so goofy that they can be dismissed out of hand, but others are quite logical, and MAY well be (within reason) "correct". The arms have passed through too many hands, with no chain of custody, to be 100% certain in all cases.

Bottom line: The personnel of the Ordnance Department were trying to field the most up-to-date TOOL that could be provided to the soldier, and that involved swapping some parts, not always at the same time, or place, and not always with the same parts(!) though they WERE also striving for interchangeabiity. They had absolutely NO thought that they might be confusing future participants in a hobby that had not even been invented yet!

End of rant  Smiley  Smiley
  
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FredC
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #35 - May 17th, 2018 at 6:34pm
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These were the early days of fully interchangeable parts and they tested the limits, when doing refurbs. In earlier days mixing parts like this would have been impossible.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #36 - May 18th, 2018 at 11:57am
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BTW - Knute's bolt (body) is the early type or "model 1892", with the solid rib.

The 'Striker Mechanism/bolt sleeve/extractor' are of a later type.

His bolt body has none of these listed changes.
  
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Knute1
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #37 - Jun 8th, 2018 at 3:16am
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The dragnet for non-converted model 1892 rifles in 1901.

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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #38 - Jun 8th, 2018 at 2:53pm
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Hmmmm - wonder where you would find one with a "Model 1892" stamping?
  
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Knute1
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #39 - Jun 8th, 2018 at 11:20pm
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The following is from The Secretary of Senate report fiscal year ending 6/30/1897. It lists the expenditures for the Springfield Armory. Circled in blue is in regards to model 1892 alterations. Not sure if I understand what it means.

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Knute1
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #40 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:32pm
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In researching the "Expenditure at the Springfield Armory " reports, the following was found:

Fiscal year ending 6/30/1897 (as seen in the post above),
    3,508 magazine rifles altered to model of 1896 with model of 1892 extractors.
    2,800 magazine rifles, model of 1892, altered to model of 1892, second pattern.

Fiscal year ending 6/30/1898,
   No mention of model of 1892 alterations.

Fiscal year ending 6/30/1899,
    Report could not be found.

Fiscal year ending 6/30/1900,
    1,588 altered to model of 1896.

Fiscal year ending 6/30/1901 (as found in Chief of Ordnance Report),
    6,123 altered to model of 1896.

Fiscal year ending 6/30/1902,
    5,420 altered to model of 1896.

Fiscal year ending 6/30/1903,
    No alterations of model of 1892 shown.

This is only an opinion, and I know the horse has been beat to where there isn't even any pulp left, but:
What I can gather reading the various reports, once a model of 1892 was converted to model of 1896 it was then considered a model of 1896 and no longer a model of 1892 as far as the military was concerned. Somewhere I found a list in one of the reports showing what consisted of a conversion and I will post it if found again. Others likely already have this info.

I am quite confident that my particular rifle was converted in the 1897 fiscal year, but there does not appear to be any solid evidence.
   
  
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Jon Waite
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #41 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 5:35pm
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Guys i am new here and think i need some help and i dont know where to post it. I think i have an unaltered 1892 but am not sure. I have pictures.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #42 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:11pm
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Jon - Welcome to the KCA Forum!

You may want to start a new thread and post your Krag pictures. Each attachment needs to be less than 769 KB.
  
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #43 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:24pm
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Ok thank you!
  
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Knute1
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Re: Model 1892 to 1896 Krag Jorgensen
Reply #44 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 3:23am
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For kicks and giggles, I added up all the Model 1892 altered to Model 1896 and came up with the following. I have not been able to find anything for the fiscal year ending 6/30/1899, but I don't believe any alterations were done that year anyway.

3,508(1897) + 1,588(1900) + 6,123(1901) + 5,420(1902) = 16,639

Poyer's book shows the Model 1892 production ending in December 1895 with serial number 24,919. This may also include some Model 1896. For the sake of argument, I am using the 24,919 as the rough total of 1892's built. So the very rough total of 1892's not altered to 1896 would be:

24,919 - 16,639 = 8,280

Then consider those lost, destroyed, somewhere in another country, sporterized, etc.  Can't be too many left in original configuration. Of course, we already knew that.

Also in Poyer's book he mentions that the 1892 altered stocks with the rounded cleaning rod channel filler (as mine is) was done to "new, unissued rifles" (pg. 39) in 1897. I'm not sure where he found this information. For now, I am going with that. Still there is some conflicting information to sort out. If anybody has some better info I'd like to hear from them.
  
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