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 25 Magazine Rifle (Read 11359 times)
butlersrangers
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Magazine Rifle
May 1st, 2018 at 4:39am
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IMHO - The term "Magazine Rifle" simply means a 'Repeating Arm' that has a reserve of ammunition held in a tubular, box or detachable magazine.

All Krag models, (with the exception of the single-shot .22 cal. rifles, Mann Devices, and maybe sub-caliber artillery devices), are Magazine Rifles.

"Magazine Rifle" was used in Ordnance Manuals both alone and in conjunction with specific models, (such as, Model 1898 rifle).

The term "Magazine Rifle" does not exclusively identify U.S. Krag-Jorgensen rifles that seem transitional and have features that carry-over or deviate from the "pure models".

These 'transitional' arms may have lost interchangeability and deviate significantly from the parent arm, but, "Magazine Rifle" is too generic a term to exclusively define these interesting variations - IMHO.
« Last Edit: May 4th, 2018 at 3:17am by butlersrangers »  
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olderthansome
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #1 - May 1st, 2018 at 10:11am
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It seems interesting that the title refers to the "…Rifle, Model 1898 and the Magazine Carbine, Model 1899".  Do you expect that the tile was to infer Carbine, Model 1898 as well since by 1901 it - the Model 1898 - was assumed to have been converted to the 1899 specs?  Or maybe they simply had no idea how we collectors would become so wrapped up in trying to prove that all the details had a specific meaning and place in history.  Sorta like mounds and molehills.

It's probably more likely that the motivation for the title was determined because these were the only pieces actually in production at the time.
  
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Ned Butts
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #2 - May 1st, 2018 at 10:40am
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What do you suppose that the government call them then? They are Magazine Rifles, as are most Krags, but they have multiple upgrades on the 1892 and not all that justified (in the eyes of the government) a new model 1896 designation. So it seems that they are listed as what they are Transitional Magazine Rifle with no year designation. That would seem to be too much of a "mouth full" even for the government. Had the remainder of changes to 1896 configuration not happened so quickly it is likely these could have actually been Magazine Rifle Model 1895. Thus we have another governmental "grey area"
IMHO



(Edited to add missing word for clarification)
« Last Edit: May 1st, 2018 at 9:34pm by Ned Butts »  
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Local Boy
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #3 - May 1st, 2018 at 2:52pm
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Franklin B. Mallory's forward for the "Krag Rifle Story" begins with:

"The Krag-Jorgensen magazine rifle, known popularly as the Krag, was the first cal. .30 smokeless-powder rifle adopted by the United States, and thus deserves a special place in American military history."

I agree that "U.S. Magazine Rifle" seems to be a generic title but at the turn of the century it probably seemed appropriate in someones mind.

Since my copy doesn't have any obvious citations I guess we can blame the title on the Chiefs of Ordanance, at the time, Generals Adelbert Rinaldo Buffington or William Crozier.

I'm glad military minds finally got things sorted out and started giving firearms titles like: "United States Rifle, Caliber .30-06, Model 1903" or "United States Rifle, cal .30, Model of 1917".  I guess much more specific and descriptive! Roll Eyes

BTW: Since "magazine" basically means to store or storage... wasn't there other magazine feed small firearms widely adopted by the U.S. miltary prior to the Krag???  Spencers and Henrys come to mind...
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #4 - May 1st, 2018 at 4:16pm
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No, the Krag was the first repeating rifle adopted for the entire government service. Yes, Henrys and Spencers were acquired, for expediency, during the CW, but never formally adopted as THE official arm. Prior to the Krag, the Hotchkiss and Chaffee-Reece had been issued for trial in small quantities, but not adopted. Hmm, left out the Ward-Burton of 1871, guess I was in a .45-70 mode.
« Last Edit: May 4th, 2018 at 3:29pm by Dick Hosmer »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #5 - May 1st, 2018 at 4:59pm
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For collectors and arms students of today:

"Transitional Magazine Rifle" would be a nice label for the early U.S. Krag-Jorgensen rifles that were pre-model 1896, but, deviated in various aspects from U.S. model 1892.

IMHO - "1892/1896" is a handy & good label, (but, totally unofficial), for early U.S. Krag-Jorgensen rifles that were updated to model 1896 features, (bolt 'hold-open pin', clearing-rod channel filled, and rear-sight 'flavor of the day').
  
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Ned Butts
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #6 - May 1st, 2018 at 9:52pm
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In the time period we are discussing, The term "Magazine Rifle" followed by a model designation appears in ordanance documents and reports etc. It also appears there with no model designation in regards to the rifles built between the Model 1892 and the model1896. Thus it would seem to be accepted if not official designation for these rifles at the time. That is what they called them then and that is what we should call them today lest we go down the Poyer road and make names up to "simplify" history.
  
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Knute1
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #7 - May 3rd, 2018 at 12:22am
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U.S. Magazine Rifle
   Model of 1896
   Model of 1898
   Model of 1903
   Model of 1917
THE U.S. Magazine Rifle followed by Model number (year). It does not appear that the "Model" number appears on the receiver of the rifle until the "Model 1896" came along. To this end, and this is just my opinion without a lot to base it on, when the term "U.S. Magazine Rifle" was used it meant the adopted Krag Jorgensen rifle starting with the Model 1892 and including all the variants up to the Model 1896. It was the only "U.S. Magazine Rifle" fully adopted, was it not? Once there was a Model 1896, Model 1898, etc, then things had to be better distinguished.
Drop the U.S. from "U.S. Magazine Rifle" and then I believe things get less descriptive, although it may have been understood at the time between like-minded people what they were talking about.
  
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Knute1
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #8 - May 3rd, 2018 at 1:20am
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I don't like to double-post, but I checked out the "Annual Report of the Chief of Ordnance to the Secretary of War Fiscal Year Ended  June 30, 1893". This report includes the adoption of "The Magazine Rifle, Model 1892, Caliber .30" by the Board On Magazine Arms. I believe the word Arms was used instead of rifle because it would include both rifles and carbines. The report states that the board "examined fifty magazine arms presented by American and foreign inventors". Not sure if this proves anything one way or the other, just found it interesting.
  
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Mark_Daiute
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #9 - May 3rd, 2018 at 1:26am
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If it has not been said already, read Joe's book he documents the model between the 1892 and the 1896. It is so clear the the gubmint lists 1892's upgraded to 1896 config and MAGAZINE rifles upgraded to 1896 config. He (Joe) provides copies of the gubmints lists detailing the upgrades. Specifically "Magazine" rifles being upgraded. Not 1892's but "Magazine Rifles". Same list showing the number of 1892's being upgraded and the number of "Magazine Rifles"being upgraded.
  
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Mark_Daiute
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #10 - May 3rd, 2018 at 1:34am
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Just go over to Joe's site, he has the lists posted right there and they clearly differentiate the specific models including a "magazine rifle".
« Last Edit: May 3rd, 2018 at 11:23am by Mark_Daiute »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #11 - May 3rd, 2018 at 11:19pm
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Collectors, military rank & file, the public, and 'writers' have routinely deviated from Official Nomenclature, when communicating about, discussing, or classifying arms.

Here is a learned observation from "back in the day", regarding the "name" of one of our favorites.

IIRC - I guess, I have not seen U.S. Ordnance manuals refer to the "U.S. Magazine Rifle" as a Krag or Krag-Jorgensen.

However, a lot of contemporary accounts, ballads, and references sure identified it that way.
  
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Knute1
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #12 - May 3rd, 2018 at 11:19pm
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In trying to get more educated on the subject, I went to Google Books and found this free book with a lot of good info on the origins of the U.S. Magazine Rifle by the Secretary of War. It has reports on the rifle, ammunition, progress of the re-tooling of the Springfield Armory, reason for delays, etc. Maybe some of you have already seen this report, but for others unfamiliar with it as I was this could be a good read. The name of the book is:
Report of the Secretary of War; Being Part of the Message and Documents Communicated to the Two Houses of Congress. In Three Volumes. Volume III. Washington Printing Office. 1895.
I have not read much of it yet, but did scan it for any tidbits about the rifle.
On the section reporting on the Springfield Armory, it starts with "The work of manufacture of the new magazine rifle has been almost completely transferred to the new shops at the armory, the transfer of the machinery from the old to the new shops having been made during the year in the most convenient manner."
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #13 - May 4th, 2018 at 11:59am
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Springfield Armory in 1933: The 'New Shops' and Federal Square area shown 'circled'.
  
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Knute1
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Re: Magazine Rifle
Reply #14 - May 4th, 2018 at 12:56pm
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At the time the above mentioned report was made, rifle production was reported at 60 rifles per day. The Secretary of War reported how improved efficiencies were made:
"The most important changes are, first, the introduction of cheaper labor wherever possible; and second, the substitution as far as practicable, of machine for handwork."
Labor laws have obviously changed since then, below is how the report states the labor issue was addressed:
"To accomplish what was desired, it became necessary to replace two old foremen, several inspectors, and a number of old worn-out workmen."
Sounds like they were talking about me. Hey, I'm on vacation right now.
Back to the topic. In the beginning was the Krag-Jorgensen rifle design. It was adopted by the U.S. after requested design changes were made. It was given a new name, the same method previous rifle names were made. It became our rifle and we called it the U.S. Magazine Rifle (followed by more description). A big deal was made about it being a foreign design and the Krag-Jorgensen name was likely thrown about to emphasize this by some. Krag is a catchy name, isn't it? When pronounced wrong it rhymes with flag. How patriotic?
  
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