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Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct (Read 363 times)
Duke1168
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Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct
Oct 8th, 2018 at 4:36pm
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A friend recently bought a collection containing a Krag carbine. Knowing Krags but not being experts by any means we're looking for some help.  First off the gun is in good/excellent condition.  It has what looks to be a stock of the right type/length for a carbine but looks as though it may have been sanded and refinished at one point making us think it is probably a replacement.  In addition, there are no cartouches/stamps on the stock and about 2" forward of the buttplate on the  underside it has a section measuring about 1/2" x 2" that looks like it was chiseled out and filled.  We think this may have been where a sling swivel once was but there's no corresponding evidence of a swivel ever being on the forearm section of the stock, so not sure why the rear stock was filled like that.  With that said, the collection also included a Krag carbine stock that looks to be an original, possibly the one that was originally matched with this gun. 

The barrel band is of the correct type.

The barrel is of the right length (22") and the crown does not show any evidence of ever having been cut down. 

The front sight is not an 03 sight, and is set into the barrel as a I believe a carbine sight should be. 

The rear sight is a carbine sight, properly stamped on the right, rear side with the correct "C".

With all of that said, with the exception of the stock you would think this is a bona fide carbine... until you take the receiver into consideration.  The receiver is an 1898 manufacture with a serial number OUTSIDE the carbine range.  The serial number is 412,xxx

So, with all of that said we're wondering what we have on our hands here and what it may be worth.  We not under the illusion that we have a genuine '98 carbine but what we have doesn't add up. I was going to wait to post this until I had pictures to share, but I can post those later on to give you all a better look.

Any help you can provide would be appreciated!  Thank you in advance
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct
Reply #1 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 5:46pm
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'Duke1168' - Welcome to the KCA Forum.

Pictures are invaluable in assessing exactly what you have. Close-up, clear pictures of various areas and details are much more useful than 'over-all shots'.

BTW - There are two versions of stocks that are commonly seen on model 1898 carbines:

The first and most desirable version is similar to the model 1896 carbine stock. It is usually inletted on the left-side of the stock wrist for a sling-bar & ring and it is approximately 30 inches long.

Model 1899 carbine stocks were later used on model 1898 carbines during rebuild and repair. These stocks have a longer forearm, with an overall stock length of approximately 31&3/4 inches.

All U.S. model 1896, 1898, and model 1899 carbines have their barrel-band retained by a 'flat band-spring' inletted into the right-side of the forearm tip.

(If your stock is lacking evidence of this band-spring, it is a 'cut-down' rifle stock. The 'tip' is likely patched with a wooden plug, since shortening a rifle stock exposes the routed-out channel that 'lightens' the stock).
  
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Duke1168
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Re: Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct
Reply #2 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 12:01pm
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Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

I’m going to try to get pics up in the next day or so you all can get a good look at the gun.

Thanks again
  
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Duke1168
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Re: Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct
Reply #3 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 1:40pm
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Here are some pics focusing on the things I mentioned in my original post. I hope you’re able to open them, I’m a novice at posting pics to posts like this so I'm not sure if you'll be able to open these or not.  If not I can PM them. 

Thank you again for your feedback

Receiver w/Stamp
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Right Side Receiver/Bolt
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Rear Site w/Carbine "C"
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Rear Site w/Carbine "C" #2
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Barrel Band/wFlat Spring
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Left Side Barrel Band w/Forearm End
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Forearm Underside
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Muzzle Crown
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Front Sight Profile
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Front Sight Overhead
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Underside rear stock fill
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Full length Left
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Full length Right
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« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2018 at 3:48pm by Duke1168 »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct
Reply #4 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 5:14am
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"Duke1168" - Thanks for posting pictures of your Krag.

It would be nice to see more pictures of your rear sight, (leaf & slide).

Your base is for a model 1896 carbine sight. A complete model 1896 carbine sight is worth about $500 to $600.

The carbine leaf is graduated to '20', (2,000 yards), and has a 'C' stamped next to the '20'. (The model 1896 rifle leaf is only graduated to '18'). The carbine 'slide' is also different than the 'Rifle' version.

Your model 1898 action, #412764, was manufactured around September or October, 1902. Documented Krags, close to your serial number, were manufactured as model 1898 rifles.

I believe your Krag "Carbine" is a "Parts Gun", someone has assembled from surplus parts, outside of Springfield Armory.


Dealers like Bannerman and Stokes Kirk did this on a retail basis in the 1920's and 1930's.

The Magazine-Gate on your Krag is actually for a model 1896 rifle or carbine. It is curved at the rear, whereas, the model 1898 Gate is quite 'boxy' looking.

Your barrel appears to be a Krag carbine barrel. Your front-sight base is correct, but, the blade is 'reshaped' or a replacement.

Your stock is a model 1899 carbine stock, that appears much sanded and, at some time, to have been fitted with a rifle rear sling-swivel. Your hand-guard is a rifle hand-guard and not the carbine guard, with a 'sight-protecting hump', that was utilized with the 1896 carbine sight.

IMHO - You have some nice parts, especially if that is a complete model 1896 carbine-sight. You have a nice 'parts carbine' to enjoy at the Range.
But, it is most unlikely in any combination that was 'assembled' by a U.S. Armory or arsenal.
« Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2018 at 6:26am by butlersrangers »  
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Duke1168
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Re: Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct
Reply #5 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 11:32am
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Butlersrangers, first of all thank you for the incredible amount of info you provided. What you provided will be documented and follow this gun wherever it goes whether it stays in my friends collection or becomes part of someone else’s.  Very much appreciated! If you’re ever in RI let me know, I owe you a few beers...

As far as the rear sight goes, I did have a pic of the leaf that I forgot to post, I added it below.  It is graduated to 20 and does have the C stamped on the right side across from the 20. Considering this would you say that this is definitely a complete 1896 carbine sight?

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I’ll take some more pics of the rear sight including up close shots of the slide and post them this weekend.

Thanks again for all of your help!

  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct
Reply #6 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 5:04pm
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'Duke' - I'm glad to have been of help.

Your rear-sight pictures show a complete model 1896 carbine sight. This sight, by itself, is in demand and recently has been commanding $500 to $600 at auction on ebay. (The rifle version of the model 1896 sight sells for only around $60).

I reviewed your original post and you mentioned that this Krag came with another loose carbine stock. It would be interesting to see pictures of that stock.

FWIW - I would estimate the value of your friend's Krag at around $800 to $900. It is not likely a legitimate carbine, nor is it in great condition. It is not attractive as a collection piece to most collectors.
My estimate is based on the value of the parts. Most of the financial value is the desirable carbine rear-sight.
« Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2018 at 3:15pm by butlersrangers »  
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Duke1168
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Re: Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct
Reply #7 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 1:50pm
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Appreciate the additional info. Not sure what the plans are for this gun, if he’s going to offer it up or keep it, but now that we have an understanding of what it is and where the value lies we’ll at least be able to appear knowledgeable.

Got some pictures of the additional stock he acquired at the links below. Was able to establish through the guy he bought these from that it had nothing to do with this gun. He just bought it at a gun show because he felt it was interesting. It’s not in the best of shape either...

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butlersrangers
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Re: Need Help ID'ing 1898 "Carbine" Almost all Correct
Reply #8 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 6:03pm
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That might be a better model 1899 carbine stock to put on his Krag, (or at least the hand-guard).

The hand-guard is the type that was used with the model 1896 carbine sight, when that sight was used on carbines with the 1899 type stock.

BTW/caution - Remove and replace Krag hand-guards by removing the rear-sight and stock. The hand-guards can then be slide 'back and forth' on the barrel taper and removed or replaced at the muzzle.

If the Krag hand-guards (springs) are snapped in place, (or pulled off), over the barrel, the hand-guards will likely crack.
« Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2018 at 3:35pm by butlersrangers »  
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