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 10 Carbine Puzzle (Read 7489 times)
jwagar
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Carbine Puzzle
Mar 8th, 2019 at 9:46pm
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I have a Model 1896 carbine with a Model 1892 receiver (stamped 1894, serial number 16720), and two JSA cartouches (1896 & 1898). Is there an explanation which would make it a correct, as issued carbine, or is it just a Frankenkrag? I couldn't load the other pictures at this time, the files are too large.

Here are more pictures, I'll attach as many as I can. It does have the notch on the receiver, and three holes for the cleaning rod in the stock. The rear sight only goes to 1,800 yards, and the front sight has a "c" on the right side instead of left. Seems to be one of the Model 1892 receivers which was modified to the 1896 as most were. Having it in a carbine, and with two JSA cartouches, I'm hoping it was legitimately done at the Springfield Armory.
« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:29pm by jwagar »  
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Kerz
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #1 - Mar 9th, 2019 at 10:54am
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Welcome to the forum!
Additional pics will be necessary before the experts can advise.  Closeups of the sights, muzzle, and receiver would be a good start.
Vic
  

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butlersrangers
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #2 - Mar 9th, 2019 at 4:56pm
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'Jwagar' - Welcome to the KCA Forum. It sounds like your Krag is a real interesting puzzle!

FWIW - It seems to me, your receiver, #16720, is unlikely to have been used by Springfield Armory on a model 1896 carbine.

Your Receiver was likely manufactured around June or July of 1895. (It is real strange to me that it is dated "1894")!

BTW - Manufacture of model 1896 carbines began late in 1895, at around serial number, 24709.

Your stock and hand-guard appear to be correct model 1896 carbine components. I don't recall ever seeing a Krag stock with two J.S.A. 19th century 'cartouche' stamps; that's a new one for me!

Please take and post some clear/close-up pictures of sights, muzzle crown, and markings.

Is your receiver 'notched' for the extractor 'hold-open pin'?
How many cleaning rod holes are in the stock's butt-trap?

I am delaying judgement. The facts you have stated create an enigma.
  
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Local Boy
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #3 - Mar 9th, 2019 at 5:29pm
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Here's a post from a Milsurps thread concerning anotherĀ  double stamped Krag:

(You need to Login to view media files and links)

No real answers but I guess their out there?
« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2019 at 8:17am by Local Boy »  
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jwagar
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #4 - Mar 11th, 2019 at 9:45pm
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My appologies if I'm a bit choppy with the posts, I'm new to this. Here are a couple of more pictures. The stock photo shows the circle P. I can make out the circle faintly, but not the P so much.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #5 - Mar 12th, 2019 at 1:08am
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Wow, that is a bit of a head-scratcher. My hunch is that someone (not Springfield) built a "carbine".

Your stock is a very nice later type of model 1896 carbine stock with two 'cartouche' stamps, which is a bit unusual, (and to me, seemingly unnecessary).

Your barrel is a carbine barrel. The front-sight blade may be correct, but, usually the small "C" is out of view on the 1896 carbine blade.

Your rear-sight is a model 1896 rifle-sight.

Your bolt is a model 1898 bolt.

Your 1894 dated receiver has been 'notched' for the bolt 'hold-open pin'. This alteration to early (Rifle) actions was done at Springfield Armory in the late 1890's and early 1900's.

IMHO - The mixture of rifle rear-sight, 1898 bolt, later 1896 carbine stock, and 1894 marked action - updated with 'notch', makes it very likely your Krag is a 'parts gun'. (I'd be happy to hear different).
  
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jwagar
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #6 - Mar 13th, 2019 at 9:37pm
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I appreciate the feedback. I'll see if the Sprinfield Research Service can do anything to help keep my hopes alive. With the two cartouches (1896 & 1898) and the components being within the 1898 date, they might have an explaination. Maybe they used available parts on hand to meet the demand for carbines in 1898. I hate to give up until I've exhausted the possibilities. Thanks again for taking the time to help me figure this thing out!
  
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Dick Hosmer
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #7 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 2:22pm
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You will never KNOW, but the evidence would strongly suggest that you have a very nice "parts" gun. I'm guessing that the double cartouches occur on the stock for ANOTHER reason than currently presents, and are thus adding to the puzzle as opposed to solving/supporting it. There are some things that, in my opinion, SA would not have done: 98 bolt in "96" receiver, rifle sight on a carbine, etc. Sorry, but that's my take.
  
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #8 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 2:32pm
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I am on board with Dick's evaluation
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #9 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:47pm
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'jwagar' - Perhaps another KCA member will be kind enough to check if your serial number, 16720, appears in the SRS data.

Likely, a better source of information (than contacting Springfield Research Services) would be for you to purchase Joe Farmer's Book (listed in KCA 'classifieds'). This will open access to his site.

Contacting 5MadFarmers (Joe Farmer) would be a good step. He may have an 'outside the box' explanation for your questionable "carbine".

p.s. Don't mention my name, it will impede having a good relationship with Mr. Farmer.
  
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jwagar
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #10 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 9:04pm
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Thanks for the advice Dick. I'll go ahead and do that (and won't mention your name!). I'm learning quite a bit from the books I've gotten and from the seasoned collectors here. If it winds-up being a parts gun, lesson learned, I'll be able to make a more informed decision the next time.

John


  
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Tom Butts
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #11 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 1:35am
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Serial number 16720 does not appear specifically in the SRS list of known serial numbers.  It began life as an 1892 rifle.   There were only possibly 2 (or maybe 0) 1892 carbines produced by Springfield Armory.

You have a nice looking gun there, but I would say that it has been put together after leaving the arsenal.

  
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jwagar
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #12 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 8:58pm
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Thank you for checking. Seems like the puzzle is mostly complete, just a couple of pieces missing. I've lowered my expectations of having an authentic, as issued carbine, but I'm not quite ready to throw-in the towel. I'll continue to chase down the last couple of pieces before closing the book. I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to help!
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #13 - Mar 17th, 2019 at 3:25am
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John, it was I that gave the advice to get Joe Farmer's book and not mention my name, should you contact him.

Mr. Farmer likes Dick Hosmer.

(We all like Dick Hosmer, a fine Gentleman).
  
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jwagar
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Re: Carbine Puzzle
Reply #14 - Mar 23rd, 2019 at 3:55pm
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My appologies to 'butlersranger' for the mix-up.

I'm waiting on a couple of reference books to come in, which may hold the keys to solving my puzzle. I've come across general information which gave me hope and spurred me on. I believe the books I'm expecting will have more definate proof. I'll organize the information and post it as soon as I can.
  
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