Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
American Machinist does Winchester-Lee (Read 193 times)
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 4741
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:53pm
Print Post  
In the November 22, 1900, issue of "American Machinist" the Winchester-Lee "Straight-Pull" was featured. The graphics were very nicely done.

For your viewing & reading pleasure:

Note - The article shows two models of the Winchester-Lee: The original model 1895 and an improved model 1899.

The model 1899 has a magazine 'cut-off', a different type of 'Safety-Lock', a new type of 'bolt-stop', an improved extractor, and dispensed with the bolt-release lever. 
(I have never seen a model 1899 Winchester-Lee).
« Last Edit: Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:04pm by butlersrangers »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 4741
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Reply #1 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:57pm
Print Post  
The rest of it:
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 4741
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Reply #2 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:41pm
Print Post  
Edward G. Parkhurst was the author of the November, 1900, "American Machinist Magazine" article (above).
He also worked at the Lee Arms Company and patented many of the improvements seen in the "model 1899" Lee Straight-Pull design.

If I have it right, Parkhurst's Lee Straight-Pull patent was assigned to the Lee Arms Company. James Paris Lee had left the Lee Arms Company and sold manufacturing rights of the model 1895 Straight-Pull to Winchester.

(Promoting the model 1899 explains the odd tone and 'navy butt-kissin' in the article).

Eugene Myszkowski, author of "The Winchester-Lee Rifle", (page 69-70), wrote: "The Lee-Parkhurst rifle was examined by the Bureau of Ordnance on October 26, 1897 and returned to the Lee Arms Co. The Navy, having nearly completed rearming with the Lee, felt that any subsequent order would be for the same model, with only the modifications necessary to overcome the few defects noted. It was not deemed advisable to have two separate models in service".

It would appear a model 1899 Lee Straight-Pull rifle is a very 'rare bird'. Only a few prototype models were likely made.

BTW - Edward G. Parkhurst was also the inventor of the 'Parkhurst Clip', that was tested on the Krag.
« Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2019 at 6:17pm by butlersrangers »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Knute1
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 314
Location: Illinois
Joined: Sep 10th, 2016
Gender: Male
Re: American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Reply #3 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:31am
Print Post  
I was wondering if that was the same Parkhurst when reading this.
Here is a link to recent pictures and historical pictures of the Lee Straight Pull. There are some Navy Ordnance Reports that mention this rifle out there, also.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Playapat
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 48
Joined: Feb 14th, 2019
Re: American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Reply #4 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 2:25am
Print Post  
The Lee Navy rifle intrigues me. I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen one in person. I enjoyed reading more about it and seeing these photos

But in the article the author stated, “The frailty of the extractor has made the Lee Navy a dangerous rifle to shoot for present day enthusiasts who try to hand load cartridges that feature re-sized and modified brass, as factory ammunition has been out of production for nearly a century. Finding relic cartridges manufactured for military service is extremely difficult, as single rounds boast a significant value.“

What is it about shooting this rifle today is so dangerous? It’s not clear from the article what the problem is, other than the extractor. Maybe I’m just dense, but I’m not sure why a dainty extractor would make a gun dangerous to shoot.

Anyone with any specific experience or insight in shooting this largely-overlooked gun would be appreciated.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 4741
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Reply #5 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 4:16am
Print Post  
A couple of accidents are known to have occurred in the past 18 years.

One was the fatality of a N.J. man at a Shooting Club Range in Pennsylvania. IIRC - a dangerous overload or detonation was initially suspected. The Winchester-Lee Action shattered and a piece of metal was driven into the Shooter's brain.
Victim was Glenn deRuiter and the accident occurred June 29, 2002.

Update - (The cartridge cases were altered from .30-40 Brass, per 'Forgotten Weapons', and Glenn was known as a careful reloader.
This opens the possibility this tragic accident also may have been due to cartridge case failure).

A more recent accident likely involved Case Failure. The 6mm (.236 USN) Cartridge Cases were made from converted .30-40 Krag Brass.

The case rim was removed and an extractor groove was cut into the cases by machining the case-heads on a lathe.

The owner/shooter posted pictures on a gun forum. It appeared one of the cases failed at the extractor groove, allowing high pressure gases to split the action & stock and detach the barrel. The bolt jammed and held, to a degree.

The owner received relatively minor injuries: a bruise in the middle of the forehead, two black eyes, ringing ears, and a ruined Winchester.
« Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:52am by butlersrangers »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Playapat
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 48
Joined: Feb 14th, 2019
Re: American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Reply #6 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 4:25am
Print Post  
BR, thanks for the reply. So, if I understand it correctly, there are 2 scenarios that you’re aware of in recent years: 1) an overload (overcharge?) and 2) a dangerous situation made from modifying a Krag case to use in the Lee where the extractor groove in the modified case failed.

Is there not another (better) case that can be used to create the 6mm Lee round? I’m just asking because I don’t know much about the gun or it’s ammo.

Obviously, someone made cases from Krag ammo, I assume this is a rimless round. What would be the nearest rimless relative to the 6mm Lee round?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 4741
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Reply #7 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 4:40am
Print Post  
I believe .220 Swift Brass is used to make 6mm USN reloads. (The .220 Swift cartridge was developed using the .236 USN cartridge case).

Attached pictures show ruined Winchester-Lee with failed case in chamber; fortunately, owner survived and shared story on another forum.

Note: Location and size of extractor-cut on Lee Straight-Pull barrel created a weak area in the chamber for a rim-less high-pressure cartridge.

IMHO - The Lee Straight-Pull has poor provision for handling escaping gases in the event of a case failure. Cut is at 9 0'clock and escaping gases 'split' the receiver and blew off 'top' of receiver ring.

The Krag has a similar extractor-cut, but, the cut (and bolt gas escape-hole) vent upward, with little to impede escape of high-pressure gases.
The web of the .30-40 cartridge case is well contained in the Krag chamber. The cartridge rim serves as a seal to keep hot expanding gases in chamber and barrel, where they belong, even in the event of a complete case-head separation.

« Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2019 at 3:39am by butlersrangers »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Culpeper
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline



Posts: 484
Joined: Mar 30th, 2005
Re: American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Reply #8 - Apr 16th, 2019 at 6:55pm
Print Post  
You can use .220 swift but the neck will be way short.  Buffalo Arms uses .25-06 brass for their version.  I investigated using one of the caranos because case dimensions were close.  That was a failure in thought from the word go.  The neck length would barely hold a flat based bullet.

Oh, by the way.  Those pdf copies of the commercial win-lee pamphlet that guys on gunbroker try to sell are from my original I sent to ForgottenWeapons dot com.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
wn-up


-
  

Deacon in the Church of the Mighty Krag
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
butlersrangers
KCA Forum Member
*
Offline


Krag Enthusiast!

Posts: 4741
Location: Michigan Bi-Peninsular&Proud
Joined: Oct 7th, 2009
Re: American Machinist does Winchester-Lee
Reply #9 - Yesterday at 3:48pm
Print Post  
More Winchester-Lee pictures:

Sailors in Dewey Parade - NYC 1899 & SAW Marine Uniforms
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board  ^Top