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 25 More Bolt Trivia (Read 9442 times)
FredC
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #15 - Sep 20th, 2019 at 11:28pm
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After my examination I came to the same conclusion. Since my 2 bolts in my Krags had the same dings.
Dave at Grandpa's did a good job of packaging and is providing Krag lovers with a way to make them last longer at a very reasonable price.

For those that have a Krag with similar dings massaging them carefully a fine Arkansas hone or careful use of a rotary tool with a Cratex rubber abrasive could make a Krag even smoother. This applies to a NOS or original bolt.
My sporter was head spaced to the original worn bolt so these new bolts will even fit. My dad's original rifle's bolt in automotive terms is not even broken in so I do not even need these bolts, I just wanted to see them in person and add to knowledge her on this site with measurements and a description of what I found.

My reference to grinding marks is about how these bolts were finished, please do not think of someone holding a bolt up to a bench grinder, think more on the lines of a machine like a cylindrical tool grinder. Till fairly recently grinding was the best way if precision finishing hard surfaces. The grinding done on these Krag bolts is very well done and I am not sure how they pulled it off 100+ years ago.
If you can see those marks on a bolt in use that would be an indication that at least the bolt is fairly new, if it is an original bolt the gun has very little use.

Also I am not bad mouthing the work done at SA, making almost a half million bolts this complex is a real achievement, just explaining what I see. The attached photo does show the grinding marks in 2 directions on both new bolts. take a look at yours and see if you can find them now since we know what they look like.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #16 - Sep 21st, 2019 at 6:33pm
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I have two Krag bolts that would fall under the title "New Old-Stock".

One is a model 1896 and the other is a model 1898. They do not appear to have been used on a rifle and, when I got them, there was lots of old cosmoline, that had to be removed from the exterior and interior.

To the quick glance, these bolts appear quite new, similar, and factory bright.

Upon close scrutiny, there are slight nicks, bumps, abrasions, and minor rust spots.

These bolts operate very smoothly in any Krag action, I have tried them in, and they tighten up head-space or free travel.

God only knows how many miles these bolts have traveled, greased and wrapped in paper bundles, that were stored in wooden crates.

Kind of like when New Coins are shipped from the Mint in bags. They come out bright, but, with storage marks.

IMHO - Every young man should have a NOS Krag Bolt in his Man Cave. 
  
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FredC
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #17 - Sep 27th, 2019 at 3:52pm
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I massaged one of these NOS bolts with a Cratex wheel to take of the high spots near the dings on and found another surprise, the inside of the bolt is flex honed or sanded. The smoothness here will  reduce wear and fouling on the firing pin spring. Who would know till you do a thorough cleaning and check with a bore scope.  Not sure how to take a photo through the bore scope otherwise I would do it here.
  
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FredC
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #18 - Oct 30th, 2019 at 2:13pm
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Well Butlersrangers has finished his bolt checking, in the interest of advancing Krag knowledge here, who else wants to check there bolts? If you have been a regular here for a number of years and have more than a few Krags send me a PM and we will see where the bolt checking fixture goes next.
I have to review Chuck's data but at first glance it appears that all the stamps on the bolts are going to be random as far as bolt size and head space is concerned. Further checking will be helpful and members that do check this will have a better understanding of their own Krags.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #19 - Oct 30th, 2019 at 5:40pm
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At FredC's request, I am posting a chart (recording the basics) on the twelve U.S. Krag Bolts, that I measured using his fixture.
(Fred's device precisely measures distance from recessed bolt-face to rear of locking-lug).

Eleven of my Bolts are model 1898 bolts. One is a "New Old Stock" late-style model 1896 Bolt (from Grandpa's Gun Parts).

Two of the 1898 bolts came to me in model 1896 Krag rifles that were refurbished in the early 1900's. Both bolts closed on my 'Field Gauge'.
  (I switched these two Bolts between the model 1896 barreled-actions. One Bolt 'worked' and no longer closed on the Gauge. The other action required a 'New Old Stock' model 1896 Bolt).

Six model 1898 Bolts are in the Krag rifle or carbine they arrived in. The bolts do not close on my .073" Field Gauge. (Fired Cartridge cases will interchange in the chambers of these Krags).

Four Bolt/Receiver combinations are known to be replacements. They also pass the Field Gauge test. (Oddly, the two bolts with the worst dimensions still pass in the receivers, I have put them in.

Two Bolts, (one NOS and the other showing some wear), are in my spare parts box.

Here are my results. I do not see a pattern to the markings.
« Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2019 at 6:29am by butlersrangers »  
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butlersrangers
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #20 - Oct 31st, 2019 at 6:06am
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Anyone with a batch of Krag Bolts, willing to precisely measure (bolt-face to rear of lug) and record measurements and markings, should contact FredC.
  
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Whig
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #21 - Nov 28th, 2019 at 9:49pm
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So, I'm next on the list to add to the data for Krag bolt measurements using Fred's wonderful Krag bolt gauge. Fred put a lot of time in making this accurate gauge set up for us to learn more about the detailed hieroglyphics on many Krag bolt handles and whether or not there seems to be correlation to the measured front lug of the bolt body.

I have a lot of Krag bolts to measure, so, I'll probably take a while but research is never quick or easy. So far, from Fred's and Chuck's (Butler's) measurements, there does not seem to be any obvious correlation.

After I'm done, hopefully more KCA members will undertake this exercise. This measuring and detailed examination of every one of my Krag bolts is really teaching me a lot about the Krags and I am thankful that I have been given this opportunity to do this. I have definitely been learning things about my Krags that I didn't know before. That's why we do these things, I guess.

I recheck zero every 5 bolts. I have been wrapping a rubber band around each bolt or Krag after measuring the bolt so I don't lose track of which ones I have done. I also am cleaning the bolts well enough so as not to affect precise measurements.

Thanks Fred and Chuck for the gauge, procedure and layouts that you have made in starting this project. I'll eventually finish this up and report back.

It doesn't matter how many bolts you might have to measure. You'll learn a lot by doing this and add to the database.
  
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FredC
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #22 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 2:25am
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Hey Whig,
I have 2 Krags and only had 2 bolts for a long time and I managed to mix them up. I figured them out and got them correctly matched before I did the sporter build.  You are certainly braver than I am to pull that many at once, either that are you are superbly organized. The markings are probably unique for each bolt, I suppose if each one was ID before removing them I could keep that many straight.
Be careful.
  
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Whig
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #23 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 2:35am
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Thanks, Fred. I have been trying to be meticulously organized with this exercise. Thanks for the opportunity to learn a lot more about my Krags and work at this additional organization. I didn't know that I had as many M1892 bolts as I do. I also found a number of M1896 bolts in M1898 Krags and vice versa that has allowed me to switch things around to make some of them more correct. I don't plan on shooting some of these so I don't think I'll be altering head space to any dangerous degree since we already know Krag bolts are mostly interchangeable.

There are a few small differences with Krag bolts that I have now learned to easily see after doing these measurements. I used Poyer's book mostly to examine all of these tiny detail changes of the Krag bolt over time. I have finished the measurements with my time off with Thanksgiving. Great little project for this week. I'll be copying the measurements pages and get them to you and Chuck for review. I haven't spent much time reviewing the results myself yet. I'll wait a few days and give the info some fresh eyes.
  
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FredC
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #24 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 8:09pm
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FredC wrote on Sep 20th, 2019 at 4:38pm:
Next surprise the locking lug's working surface is NOT ground. It shows machine marks as well as the case hardened surface. This will give a way of guessing at wear of the bolt.
The first attached photo shows a bolt that has not been used in 80 years as well as one of the new bolts. The lightly used lug shows a shiny spot (circled) covering about 20 to 25% of the surface. So most of the lug has never touched the corresponding surface of the receiver.


I had too much trivia in post #13, so I thought it may be beneficial to mention estimating wear again.

The most meaningful way I can think of to estimate wear on the locking lug will be to estimate a percentage of wear to original surface  area on the inside of the lug. So on the bolt on the right the shiny area(worn is about 20% of the original surface, so lets call that one 20% wear. If the whole surface is shiny we would call it 100%. If it is 100% it could have all the surface worn just a .001 inch (relatively new) or it could be worn and lapped .010 inches like my sporter, but the percentage and measurement together will give the best guess as to its current status.
  
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FredC
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #25 - Dec 6th, 2019 at 4:00pm
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Whig has emailed me that he has finished with the measuring on his Krags. Anyone else that would like to do this please send me a PM. It would save on shipping if Whig were to send it directly to next KCA member.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #26 - Dec 10th, 2019 at 7:14am
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Whig kindly sent me a copy of his work sheets, today, recording measurements and markings he encountered on 58 Krag Bolts!!!

I compared his 'data' with my notes on 12 Krag Bolts that I measured and noted markings.

My impressions:

Whig and I have measured 70 bolts: 8 model 1892, 9 model 1896, and 53 model 1898/99.

The dimension measured was from the recessed "bolt-face" to the rear surface of the locking-lug.

1. On the sample bolts, this dimension ranged from .4600 inches to .4791 inches. (A difference of .019").

2. The average of the 70 measurements was .4736 inches.
(If I threw out the highest and lowest measurements, the average of 68 bolts was .4737 inches. The average for my 12 bolts was .4739 inches). Realistically, No Difference Regarding Averages.

3. 35 of the bolts measured below .4744" and 35 measured above .4741".

There was an amazing array of Letters, Numbers, Symbols and 'punch' marks on the 70 Bolt-Handles.
There were only a couple of pairs of bolts with markings that matched. These 'paired' bolts had different dimensions.

The bolt-face to rear of locking-lug dimensions did not seem to bear a relationship to the markings.

FWIW - It is my opinion the Krag Bolt Markings signaled 'steel lots', production batches, or some inspection process. They do not appear to identify different bolt sizes.
« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2019 at 9:33pm by butlersrangers »  
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FredC
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #27 - Dec 10th, 2019 at 5:26pm
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Still waiting to see my copy.
Some of the marks may indicate what line or shift was involved. As production of the bolts ramped up they had to be made on different lines. When a problem arose being able to ID which line was causing the problem would be important. Some marks are probably from different inspections and or inspectors.
Bolts are way more complicated than they look the locking lug, guide rib, and bolt handle are all indexed to so many degrees, besides all the linear measurements. Cam surfaces for cocking and on and on.

BR, I thought I was seeing a pattern in the SXX numbers with yours and my reports. If the SXX mark does mean anything it would be a late development to simplify rebuilds. Whig said earlier bolts had few if any marks.
  
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butlersrangers
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #28 - Dec 10th, 2019 at 6:53pm
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'FredC' - If it is OK with 'Whig', I will photograph his data and forward it to you.

FWIW - The difference between the largest (.4791") and smallest (.4600") Bolt measurement was .019", or about the thickness of 4 sheets of typing paper.

If you throw out the extremes, (4 low and 3 high measurements), the measurements all fall between .4694" and .4780" or .0086", less than 9 thousandths of an inch variation, about the thickness of two sheets of typing paper.

The 45 bolts in the middle of the pack vary less than .005", (between the shortest and longest), the thickness of one sheet of typing paper!
« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2019 at 9:24pm by butlersrangers »  
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Whig
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Re: More Bolt Trivia
Reply #29 - Dec 10th, 2019 at 7:50pm
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Fred, Your copy should be there today or tomorrow. You just live farther away than Chuck does. I'm in Ohio. I have no problem with my info being e-mailed back and forth. Might be better not to put it all on the KCA directly. Good for any research use privately.

I'll wait a while longer before sending the gauge anywhere in case anyone else chimes in for measuring.

Dick, do you have any interest in getting this gauge to measure your bolts?

Thanks all,

Larry
  
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